justoffal wrote the following post at 07-07-2007 6:19 AM:

If you are not phenotypically black and have not experienced economic disadvantage, you do not know what it is to live in the world of black America

Nonsense!

There is nothing at all original or unique about the sufferance of the black community... Overblown...plain and simple...just overblown

This is not overblown at all, justoffal. While the reference to experiencing economic disadvantage as being a necessity to the "black experience" is debatable, the rest of this post rings true.

I wish that everyone could have the courage and self-understanding of the original poster to be able to see how their identity and experiences color their perspectives.

Whether or not the original poster was a bit extreme and his/her comments may have been colored by his/her anger, this does not negate his/her reality. Those of us who were bussed were all individuals; children of the same age, heirs to the same promise, yet we have had individual experiences. This person's experience rings true with me, and yet the white person's experience who was bused with his/her black neighbors rings true as well. As a black child growing up in "integrated" schools, I learned many lessons, reaped many benefits, and suffered many pains. I learned what the original poster learned: that being educated by "the enemy" was, in some cases, simply putting a bandaid on a geyser; there were plenty of smiling faces from parents, but the understanding was often that you will be a "nice black" and go to school with my kids, but you will not come to my house for dinner. You get my drift. We'll put a happy face on this and act like integration is really happening, but in reality, by the time we got to high school in the '80s, most social circles were fairly well segregated, even though the college prep classes I attended were integrated. Yet of course, the reality is that, as a child of integration, just like that white person who was also bused, I have grown up, been educated, and operated in mostly interracial/cultural circles of people. This makes me feel wonderful, but it does not erase the reality that Black people, in this country, will always need to have our own communities to return "home" to, even if only in symbolic ways. Black people from the diaspora have always had to be bilingual and bicultural, and I see that as a strength rather than a weakness. The children of integration have a unique battle: We must remember that our "segregated" communities had a strength and love that cannot be matched, and we must work to maintain what remains of that, mostly, our family and social connections, while continuing to work with those of other races and cultures who remain open to us, and continuing to mingle and thrive in the muliticultural domains in which many of us live and work. We must reach one hand backwards, towards home, which may be a homogenous community and one hand forward, toward communities of diversity. We must find and multiply love and growth in both places. It is not an easy task.

donjohn5 wrote the following post at 07-07-2007 4:23 AM:

For the sake of my biracial daughters, I hope soulgroove is wrong!

There is so much talk about hope. Hope is not work. To the poster with the biracial daughters, I hope what the original poster said will not continue to be true too. But I know that regardless of the tone in which it came out, there is much truth in what he said. donjohn5, I truly wish you the best, but I must say that your post represents the "Liberal drivel" that another poster referenced:

I have read nothing but ignorant responses to the original post. Liberal drivel from people who don't know what it means to live in Black America. I live there, and I can sympathize with the impulse to work within the community to create institutions that serve our youth and families.

If you did not experience integration as a black child, you cannot denigrate someone else's reality or experience of that, and to do so, calling his opinion "hateful" and "inaccurate," in the name of supposed racial tolerance b/c you have biracial children is simply using those children as a front. A liberal tactic. Mating with or marrying a black person does not give a white American a "black card." It does not mean that you have a better understanding of what it means to be black in America than a black person. It means, hopefully, that you are an openminded person who is aware enough of race and its implications in this society to prepare your children for the realities that they will face, which will vary, based upon their appearance and their socio-economic position. That is simply reality. John Edgar Wideman's children will and have had different experiences than will Tiger Wood's children, than will the offspring of a poor black and white couple living in public housing. That's just reality. The original poster was not implying that MLK was "wrong," and to insert such words into his/her mouth is most appalling. To critique our government, our leaders, is not blasphemy, but the highest form of praise. It means we are paying attention, learning from history, and we want the next step taken to be a better one. I adore MLK, the man and his mission, but I have sense enough not to put him, or any other leader on a pedestal to the point where I cannot critique the outcome of the movement. The fact is, the civil rights leaders were incredibly brave, but no movement, no action is perfect. In dismantling segregation, the children of the movement grew up without having the experience of going to those all black schools that our parents did, schools that may have been underequipped, but that were "over" staffed with caring black teachers and children who looked like us, parents who did not expect us to agree to the tacit assumption that we would not show up to dinner, but who were, in fact, our parents when our parents were not around. In truth, those of us who are heirs to the movement gained diversity and a movement through "white" society that our forefathers only dreamed of, but we also lost the strength that had been embedded in those "segregated" black communities. I believe this is more of what the original poster was referencing. If his experience of integration was tainted by more painful than neutral experiences, and this is what it left him with, so be it. There is no point in being angry with him about it. Why not be angry with those fellow whites whose actions bred his anger? Those whites who may be just as angry about you having so much hope for your biracial daughters? Why not be angry with them?

donjohn5 wrote the following post at 07-07-2007 4:23 AM:

"I think the Civil Rights leaders believed too much in goodness of white americans when they should have never allowed our children to educated by our white enemies because White Americans believed in racial equality in theory not in practice and that has not changed in 53 years since that moment."

This is the most hateful and inaccurate statement in the entire thread. It implies that their is no hope of an integrated, just society, and that MLK was wrong.

For the sake of my biracial daughters, I hope soulgroove is wrong!

justoffal wrote the following post at 07-07-2007 12:40 AM:

I don't buy Martin Luther King's message or his phony holiday because I never saw any evidence of universal reach in his efforts.

Please do some reading b4 you make such statements, justoffal. Shortly before MLK was assassinated, he had been working on the Poor People's Campaign, to address issues of economic justice for all people, regardless of race, religion, etc. Martin was assassinated before the 2nd phase of the movement got off the ground. The campaign continued on in his honor, but faltered without him. Is it possible that, given the "success" of his charismatic leadership, there were those who did not want to see that leadership applied to a more liberal swath of Americans? You never saw any evidence of "universal reach" b/c he was killed before he was able to do even bigger and greater things. Read your history before you speak, and especially before you denigrate great leaders.

From Wikipedia:

The 1968 Poor People’s Campaign did not focus on just poor black people but addressed all poor people of every minority. Poor Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, American Indians, and even poor whites were included in the campaign. Martin Luther King, Jr. labeled the Poor People’s Campaign the “second phase,” of the civil rights struggle. The “first phase” focused on the segregation problems. Both phases were addressed in a non-violent manner.

A recent issue of Time Magazine explained that MLK empathized more and more with all people suffering from poverty in the late 1960's. As a result he started trying to help not just Blacks but all disadvantaged Americans. When asked why he wanted to help whites from places like the Appalachian mountains, King answered: "Are they poor?" [1]

In 1968, Martin Luther King Jr. and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference organized the Poor People's Campaign to address issues of economic justice. The campaign culminated in a march on Washington, D.C. demanding economic aid to the poorest communities of the United States. The march originated in Marks, Mississippi. From there, Dr. King crisscrossed the country to assemble "a multiracial army of the poor" that would descend on Washington--engaging in nonviolent civil disobedience at the Capitol, if need be--until Congress enacted a poor people's bill of rights.

justoffal wrote the following post at 07-07-2007 6:19 AM:

If you are not phenotypically black and have not experienced economic disadvantage, you do not know what it is to live in the world of black America

Nonsense!

There is nothing at all original or unique about the sufferance of the black community... Overblown...plain and simple...just overblown

This is not overblown at all, justoffal. While the reference to experiencing economic disadvantage as being a necessity to the "black experience" is debatable, the rest of this post rings true.

I wish that everyone could have the courage and self-understanding of the original poster to be able to see how their identity and experiences color their perspectives.

Whether or not the original poster was a bit extreme and his/her comments may have been colored by his/her anger, this does not negate his/her reality. Those of us who were bussed were all individuals; children of the same age, heirs to the same promise, yet we have had individual experiences. This person's experience rings true with me, and yet the white person's experience who was bused with his/her black neighbors rings true as well. As a black child growing up in "integrated" schools, I learned many lessons, reaped many benefits, and suffered many pains. I learned what the original poster learned: that being educated by "the enemy" was, in some cases, simply putting a bandaid on a geyser; there were plenty of smiling faces from parents, but the understanding was often that you will be a "nice black" and go to school with my kids, but you will not come to my house for dinner. You get my drift. We'll put a happy face on this and act like integration is really happening, but in reality, by the time we got to high school in the '80s, most social circles were fairly well segregated, even though the college prep classes I attended were integrated. Yet of course, the reality is that, as a child of integration, just like that white person who was also bused, I have grown up, been educated, and operated in mostly interracial/cultural circles of people. This makes me feel wonderful, but it does not erase the reality that Black people, in this country, will always need to have our own communities to return "home" to, even if only in symbolic ways. Black people from the diaspora have always had to be bilingual and bicultural, and I see that as a strength rather than a weakness. The children of integration have a unique battle: We must remember that our "segregated" communities had a strength and love that cannot be matched, and we must work to maintain what remains of that, mostly, our family and social connections, while continuing to work with those of other races and cultures who remain open to us, and continuing to mingle and thrive in the muliticultural domains in which many of us live and work. We must reach one hand backwards, towards home, which may be a homogenous community and one hand forward, toward communities of diversity. We must find and multiply love and growth in both places. It is not an easy task.

Humanity is doomed to propagating itself and its many mistakes as long as emotionalism and the reptilian brain triumphs over intellectualism and enlightened self-interest.

What irks many men is the fact that it is the WOMEN who decide on our future, that it is their choice of who the deem worthy of paternity that will fund Social Security check. It doesn't take a raving feminist to understand that educating women is paramount; this is what disturbs so many Islamics and fundamentalist Christians.

One has to have hope or all is lost. If women continue choosing the pretty fools and the misogynists as mates, we'll get another generation of fools, racists and easy victims of misogyny. I'm willing to bet that when men discover that women won't fall for their lines of crap any longer, they'll adjust their behaviors beyond the Neanderthal. It can ahppen.

If you did not experience integration as a black child, you cannot denigrate someone else's reality or experience of that, and to do so, calling his opinion "hateful" and "inaccurate," in the name of supposed racial tolerance b/c you have biracial children is simply using those children as a front.

Okay, since I grew up in egalitarian Iowa, I have not the "right" to question the foolish behavior that is propagated in the Houston "ghetto?" The only appreciable difference between my wife, who has a Master's Degree in Education and her "welfare queen" sisters is that she lived with her grandmother instead of their mother. That boring, conservative household deprived her of the daily social interactions that her siblings later had, leaving book reading (and old black & white movies) as her primary activity. By six, she was reading the newspaper because there was nothing else in the house. She experienced plenty of discrimination, but nearly all of it from her classmates who saw her as too "black", too fat and too smart. Perhaps her reading and television watching inspired her "whiteness", but I'm her third white husband, and after 17 years of marriage, things couldn't be much happier.

Our biggest problem now is with her health issues, some of which resulted from being taught poor eating habits, others of which are genetic in nature. The advantage of "outcrossing" is that neither of our daughters (or her other one from a previous husband) manifest any of these problems.

What I worry about most is how to explain to my daughters the blatant racism her black cousins see as "normal." The 8-year-old cried Thursday when her cousin called her a "nigger" (though without malice). How do I explain this? The other one can't comprehend her other cousin's disparagement of her clothing (why do you wear "white girls' clothes?")

It's the racist attitudes that blacks internalize that are most destructive. Some see racism as simply a challenge to be overcome (see: Sidney Poitier) while others see it as an occasional bother but one that can work for you as well as against you. At any rate, the deleterious effects of racism are diminishing and will die out completely in time f you will just allow it.

I found this post forum by accident and was curious because most responses are to, or in relation to what is semingly an Afrimerican rant of semi literate racism, White race hating without any real factual foundation to support it.

That is one of the results of the Brown Vs Board decision. How.

Well, as the case gained momentum, and media exposure, qualified Afrimerican teachers were removed and replace by White, usually Jewishly White teachers who instituted a defective educational schema in Afrimerican schools. It is a matter of record that 54% of Afrimerican teachers were let go in the manner described. Thus what the writer demonstrates is the result of that action.

The writers expression is indicative of the race based dislike that from lack of educationa and other existential factors like poverty, media stereotypes, etc... have subjorned the example.

I deal with race , and racism everyday, some my own, mostly from others, and there is one constant I have seen, and witnesseed many times over, and that is, Whites can use their Whiteness at any time to put an Afrimerican at a disadvantage. It's call institutionalized racism. It's built into the social fabric of the United States.

Thus, while racism is a matter of choice, if it's built into the legislation then it's still racism, racism codefied by law which gives racist behaviour a means of legal expression that can be blamed, or discontented per the legislation.

I was bused, and one of the main questions were why were Afrimerican students bussed to White schools and not vice versa. I was bussed when bussing began, and it was'nt until the mid, to late 70's that Whites began to be bussed to Afrimerican schools, usually newer schools that had been brought up to code.

The answer as to why the bussing was one sided in the beginning goes back to the statement made earlier about the deteriorated schools, and schooling in Afrimerican schools. That was due to legislation that is still applied today per school funds for supplies, books, and etc.

In my first five years of formal school attendance our school did'nt get any new material and we use material that was grossly outdated, and when we did get new books, they were three or four year old books from White schools.

Next, about the too dark to be white, and too white to be Black, what is that? That's a way of playing both sides, which in Afrimerican circles is commonly known as being the House Negro. I'm Black when I need to be, and I am White when it comes to adherence to social policies that I have been able to manuever my way into acceptance by, thus I have to go along to maintain position.

While spirituality is all good, and much needed in the world, the day to day tangible psychological, economical, educational, political, are real affects that need to addressed, and addressed beyond some wish and a pray modality.

The first thing is to get out of denial, and or riding the fence, and admit racism is a problem, and investigate it , find it's root in whatever arena it'd found, then identify who, what, and how, then apply a solution.

Curious perspective.

First of all, I'd like to know at least which city you're writing from, since I've not seen the "Afrimerican term. I like it better than African-American.

Secondly, your assumption that "qualified" teachers were removed in favor of Jewish ones is quite specious, although in some cases probably true. I'd like to see where you found that statistic and the mitigating factors.

That they lowered the educational standards is debatable; more than likely, it was the substantial increase in black public school enrollment and decrease in class sizes following that momentous occasion that altered the educational quality.

Blaming a particular group does little good, however, unless you mean to replace racism with anti-semitism.

I can tell you from my Houston inner city teaching experience that most of the teachers who failed the TECAT tests were black, some taking them for a dozen times. Other black teachers have varying degrees of competence. While many can maintain excellent discipline, there knowledge of subject matter is spotty. My wife is one of the very few black teachers I've ever known to be competent in knowledge of subject matter (better than most of her white colleagues) and can manage discipline.

I think that African-Americans have internalized racism so much that they have an unreasonable suspicion against each and every white person. Are some white people racists, certainly; in fact it is almost certain that every white person is somewhat racist, but it really doesn't help matters to be a surly jerk to every white person you meet in order to balance this out.

THe black community has no obligation to engage the white community either as a group or individuals. Society cannot force people to associate with anyone. Everyone has the freedom to associate with whom they wish; however it is not really very practical or constructive to wall yourself off from the rest of society. What are the practical implications of this?

Do you merely act coldly to every white person that they do not get too comfortable around you, or do you actively act hostile to make sure they get the point? Do you harass your white teachers because they are part of the white power structure, do you flip-off or (threaten to) assault whites who approach you in the street? Do you constantly make politically incorrect jokes about whites in front of their face. Some African Americans, particularly young black men, seem to feel that this sort of anti-social behavior is somehow a political statement against racism, but it is really just being anti-social.

Some majority black communities have even gone so far as to shut whites and other races out of jobs in their municipalities or homes in their areas. As comparatively rare as this is it is not too fundamentally different than the systemic racism against blacks.

Again people have the freedom to associate with whom they will, but segregationism is just isolationism and isolationism is anti-social.

The original poster is right about the realities of formal integration. Cultural racism prevents white people from accepting black people as their brothers, and thus no real integration ever takes place. You can fill the buses, you can mix the class rooms, but unless you have a truly enlightened teacher, and supportive parents, "integration" is only a statistic, not a social reality. Nonetheless, talking to one another is always better than hiding in old racial trenches. In this culture, with this economy, where one race has significantly more power and wealth than another, to further segregation would be to foment all-out racial war. Hatred develops out of ignorance, and hiding from one another only condemns us to misunderstanding of each other's culture. A pluralistic society, with rich, diverse communities is always valuable, however these communities can't be at war with each other. They must be part of a greater community, founded on humanism and real equality. The Supreme Court has got it wrong on equal rights. We will only have equal rights when we have equal opportunity, and that means the same claims to education, health care, and clean neighborhood environments. Rather than "equal rights," we need to establish a right to equality. It's that, or inevitable race war.

What about the idea of psychological otherness? Isn't it natural to want to ally oneself with members of one's immediate community - people who look and dress similarly, speak a shared language, share with one another easily recognizable values like church attendance or music preferences? The person on the other side of the fence will always seem scary and hateful - until we reach over the fence and feel the hand belonging to that person is human, too. Does bussing and integration promote reaching across the cultural divide or does it divide our children from their culture? I think it's in the individual action of each person. For some people, the overwhelming fact of the matter is that they are taken out of their familiar context and placed somewhere people might make fun of them, hurt them, or keep them from achieving what they might have achieved in a more familiar or supportive environment. This engenders hostility and hate. For other people, it means they learn to reach out over that fence and discover that despite how different and strange we might seem to each other, inside each of us is a human, one who loves and feels awfully similar to oneself. Racial division is a reality in today's America, a reality with an awfully checkered past. Yet all my time living and working in the suburbs, the inner city, the midwest (in Minneapolis, one of the hotbeds of this issue today) and on the other side of the world in China and Ukraine, from walking door-to-door for an environmental action agency to teaching English in a foreign land, I have learned one thing: despite how hard we try to imagine we are different from each other, we're not. We're the same. Let's embrace race, culture, heritage, and share it with each other willingly. When some insensitive moron can't do the same thing, let's have pity for their ignorance. It's up to us now to create a world where everyone is human.

i sympathize with those who experienced bussing as a well-meaning but ultimately destructive attempt at forced "harmony." i do not want to quibble with the experiences of persons of color or quibble with how "extreme" those impressions may or may not be.

i for one agree that racial segregation is not a bad thing at all - nor is integration, when it occurs naturally. i am a firm believer in small districts and neighborhood schools. i graduated from a high school that was probably 50% caucasian, 40% black, and 10% "other." i saw firsthand what "natural" integration can look like - and it was great! people naturally gravitated to those more like themselves of course, whether that was due to race, personalities, or interests (blacks with blacks, jocks with jocks, burnouts with burnouts) but there was an atmosphere of tolerance and "live and let live" that was interesting. there was also a fair amount of actual integration - basically everyone, from what i could tell, had friends or was friendly with persons of other races. if you dated someone of another race, no one cared. race was a pertinent topic and i was party to many constructive conversations about race, but generally race just wasn't an issue.

bussing black (or latina/o or asian or whatever) kids to the white burbs doesn't solve anything. the only benefit to that is perhaps some students coming from impovershed (and sometimes unaccredited) schools could gain some benefits from going to schools with more amenities, but this has more to do with class and not race.

I am not black so I won’t pretend to know what it’s like, but I am not white either. I am American and I have met many people that would like to deny me that right. My family has always been in California, even before it was America. I still have relatives in Mexico, but to them I am American. As American as I am, I have met people all over this country that don’t see me as such. After reading all the posts on this site, I realize that many individual in this country or in this blog at least, choose to mire themselves in self pity with the need to wear their woes on their sleeve.

For someone to say that Reverend Martin Luther King Junior’s message did not cross racial boundaries, well, I am proof that they are wrong. My father was part of that movement because it meant a creation of a different world to him and he instilled those ideas in me. MLK was not just a leader in one community. He is a leader in my world too. We can choose to live our days as a response to those that hate us or we can live our days in action that is fueled from within us. I have chosen the latter.

I prove myself through commerce. I know for a fact that I have been passed over in business by both blacks and whites because of my race, but I refuse to be a blip of a reaction to that ignorance and hate. In the ‘70’s I was also bussed into white schools and black schools; Yes, we gravitated to those most like ourselves, but I can honestly say that it was based on ideology and not race. That was one of my most important lessons, that it is how one uses their mind that connects you to others, and not something as trivial as the color of your skin. I’m aware that many people use skin color to make their judgements, but I chose not to take that path and have good friends that struggled, as I have not to take that easy route. I was invited to dinner over to my friends houses, regardless of their race; not because I was a good bootlicker but because I believed early on that the value of my worth was determined from within myself, regardless of what others thought about me. That is the ultimate message of MLK, regardless of race.

Bussing worked for me. To this day, diversity has been my greatest education. As for the original post by soulgroove07, you are quick to point out your suppressors and your enemies, but you overlooked yourself as the greatest culprit. Sure it’s not easy to believe in yourself in this fast-paced ever changing world, but you can’t blame anyone else for that. I am glad to know that this isn’t the case with all people. My life is far from a Utopia, but not so far that I can’t see glimpses of it from here.

The people most frightened by integration are the ones that need a little push into it. It is a shame that the courts ruled against it. These judges are overlooking the fact that some people need a little encouragement. In some ways we are digressing. Soulgroove07’s voice is proof of that. I am glad to hear his opinion, because it is an awakening that now, more then ever, is not the time to become complacent or to allow our individual inner strengths to become defeated. Yes, I was forced into integration, but I naturally found the worth in it and it has made a difference in my life.

donjohn5, I think you are missing a very important point about the Israeli/Palistinian conflict. The main issue there is mainly over religion and holy sites and everything else that goes along with that.

When I look in the mirror I see an idea. It is that idea I believe in, that makes me worth looking at, worth listening to. It is that idea that I live for. Not the face, not the eyes, not the limbs; and definitely not the skin. The skin that can be peeled away and make it very difficult to differentiate me from any other human, as well as, many other animals. Yes, it is that idea that sets me apart. Now that I know that, I ask myself: What is that idea made out of? Is it defeat? Is it a stereotype? Is it the opinion of ignorance or hate? Is that idea just a response to those that have chosen to kick me around or even celebrate me?

The idea I see in the mirror is none of those things. What it is then? It is the commitment to life: My commitment to explore, and my commitment to let others know who I am. Yes, one can say that I live in a dream state, but what is reality, if not a place to dream; a place where we are challenged to bring those dreams to fruition.

Reality could be a place where we are merely living somebody else’s dream, but I constantly choose my reality to be a pallet where I test my strokes.

It is not in the colors that I use where I find meaning, but it is in the way I commit those colors. I have to ask; how do use your color? What does white say about the devil? What does black say about the slave? To me it says nothing. It is the stroke of a human, for instance, how that human stands that speaks to me. It is the gesture of the brush that paints us, not the color. My proof of that is that I can paint all humans in any one given color and still what prevails, what comes through clearly, is the idea: the idea that human has chosen to be. It is that idea I see, when I look at myself in the mirror.