... then it was likely to try to get him to moderate his frankly bizarre attitudes towards Jews.

See what I mean?

Your only problem with the Duke/Don Black kkkrew seems to be the Jewish issue. You obviously think their psychotic positions about blacks, latinos, miscegenation, white nationalism and race war are all "not bizarre."

Face the fact buddy. You are a racist. Jared's supposed "Jewtrality" is neither here nor there... he is a white separatist.

This isn't hard for anyone on the outside to see. You can try to take a moral high ground because you're part Jewish, and Jared's wife might be a Jew (thus his children as well)... You may feel smug in getting the smarty-pants racist Jews to be your buddies.Doesn't change the fact that

1st You are a still racist hate mongers

2nd Your supposed allies will turn on you as Jew-lovers the minute they don't need you anymore.

& 3rd Historically, large numbers of Jews were... black. Moses' wife Miriam was black (look it up), Solomon's wife the Queen of Sheba was black... Shit Solomon himself wrote "I am black and I am comely" in one of his psalms. The people who left Egypt with Moses included a host of Nubians as well... You ever see a Nubian? Go to Egypt and sail up the Nile. Nubians are black.

So. Happy Holidays my racist brother. Don't forget that at least one of the 3 kings who came to worship baby Jesus was black... and the long-haired hippy savior himself was no Aryan himself.

"The flock of the Lord shall have hair like lamb's wool."

Dear General...

I've been very impressed by your patient and tolerant stance here on this issue.

You've been a model of clear thinking, open mindedness & compassion.

I fall into the 2 & 3 category of the previous poster, but I go even futher. Not only is the frame incorrect, not only is the science inconclusive, not only are the advocates dyed-in-the-wool racists, but debate is pointless.

As you have so neatly said, either we help everyone who needs helping or we don't.

All the interesting stuff happens at the margins. I don't think for a moment that I substantially undermined the opinions of stillwarm, that ol' "taboo-stalker" whatshisname, morganlee, or any of the other intractable racists I've been talking to. I'm just disinclined to allow them the floor, unimpeded, so they can weave their distorting argument without someone pointing out that the loom they're weaving on isn't science, it's just good-ol' bigotry incarnated in a shiny new machine.

Otherwise, I agree - we'd all be much better off creating a new dialogue, rather than participating in this one. One of my more intellectual friends was arguing a similar point recently, though his point was related more (I think) to strategies for finding "the truth" than to reinforcing a frame. I didn't respond to him, but I probably should, because anyone who really thinks we've been debating science here has either a poor understanding, or a distorted view, of "science". This isn't science - it's bigotry with numbers. What we've been arguing here is more subtle than that - it's related to alternatives in world view, and in some ways, mirrors the same tired old "conservative" and "liberal" arguments on other topics.

It's funny - my friend also made reference to the emotion-laden arguments and offense expressed in a dismissive way. I don't see it that way - I see the nature of the offense as related to framing (again). That people don't express this (or conceptualize it) well is beside the point. But some people have become so enthralled by the narcissistic rapture of "science" that they've failed to question the (carefully crafted) nature of the questions being asked, and how this fundamentally alters both the results obtained, and the manner in which they are interpreted. They wave a dismissive hand at the impassioned objections of people who can feel the distortion in their gut, even if they can't describe the manner of it.

When we don't counter the bigots, then they get to control the parameters of the discussion. When we don't speak up, we are in essence colluding with their proselytizing efforts. I've too much conscience to abdicate the floor. But otherwise, I agree - it's distasteful, and in many ways futile.

I'd just like to believe that, had I lived in Germany in the thirties, I'd have been heckling from the back of the room, and printing leaflets on the side. This generation of adults has never faced the kind of national challenges we might be in for, and I'm afraid we're ill-prepared for them. But if people think that atrocities of the nature (though even I like to think, not the scope) of those in Germany could not occur here, they should take a longer look at the ease with which this electorate has been so effectively manipulated, and spend a little more time thinking about the appeal of being led down a cool garden path, when you're living in (or have been deceived into believing you live in) a desert.

General, I think you're way over-dramatizing this debate. Sure, there are racists on the fringe of the debate since it involves race, but the key scientists involved on both sides have mutual respect and don't attack each others' motives. As you stated above, genetics will soon resolve the issue of racial differences, so everyone should take a deep breath.

The Hitler analogy is far-fetched. In 1930s Germany, Jews were resented for their success and accused of stabbing the nation in the back in WWI. Today in this country, most people and both political parties have nothing but good will toward African-Americans. There's no Hitler in sight, and many blacks have good jobs and live in decent neighborhoods. The serious social problem is the approximately half of black Americans that live in mostly dysfunctional families in the crime-ridden inner cities, go to failing schools and have little chance of ever escaping.

The median IQ in these inner city neighborhoods has been estimated at less than 80. This huge IQ deficit presents obvious challenges for schools, criminal justice and health services that would remain even if racism entirely disappeared -- which it never will. Enlightened social policy would recognize that traditional education will be ineffectual for all but a relatively few of these kids. Beyond basic academic skills (functional literacy and arithmetic), what most of these kids need is real, hands-on training for semi-skilled trades and occupations. Despite all the money we are spending on "education", this is not happening.

I find nothing offensive in the truth. Your comments are secure

Aside from what I consider an error of taking the bible literally, the link below is a hilarious send up of some of the wilder parts of the bible:
<link>
most of what you wrote about the old testament is incorrect:

Sandrali:

& 3rd Historically, large numbers of Jews were... black. Moses' wife Miriam was black (look it up),

Miriam was the sister of Moses.. not his wife.. his wife's name was Zipporah the daughter of Jethro who was described as a preist from Midian. Midian which is generally described as being east of the Jordan river and the Dead Sea. There is a phrase in the bible wherein Miriam and Aaron (the brother of Moses..) criticize him for marrying a "Cushite" (Which generally meant Ethiopians but sometimes also lands to the East and lands to the West) this may have been an earlier marriage..but it's quite unclear

Sandrali:

Solomon's wife the Queen of Sheba was black...

Nope, they never married, that's for sure.... the bible indicates she flirted with him but resisted his advances..

Sandrali:

Shit Solomon himself wrote "I am black and I am comely" in one of his psalms.

Nope.. that was from a women who likely was Sheba.. not from Solomon ..the bible indicates
that she flirted with Solomon but never took him as a lover, Ethiopians however believed she returned to Ethiopia with Solomon's child...

Sandrali:

Your only problem with the Duke/Don Black kkkrew seems to be the Jewish issue.

They certainly seem to believe that Jews are their biggest issue, hence my discussion of it in those terms..there are certainly other issues I have with them.

GeneralDisarray:

The most obvious answer is that this further reinforces the cultural alienation that gives rise to so many of the environmental problems contributing to the problem. A corollary answer has to do with the impact of internalization.

GeneralDisarray:

Possibly. Odd that the somewhat lower performance of their children, then, would be attributable to "regression to the mean" rather than reflecting the continuing impact of "institutionalized racism".

I would suggest that neither regression to the mean nor institutionalized racism explain (as you say somewhat lower performance, I haven't seen the studies...) the performace of the children of African immigrants. Perhaps it's just absorption of the general distractions and slacker attitude of American society..? Maybe something else. If I understand you correctly American Blacks are affected by institutional racsim when subject to institutions run by Whites (how about if they are run by neither Whites nor Blacks as is becoming more common in California..) but if allowed to separate themselves into a school away from Whites, they are subject to cultural alienation. You'll excuse if I say that it sounds like "they are damned if they do and damned if they don't" What then is the solution..?

GeneralDisarray:

Perhaps in this case we are not receiving, as you suggested was the case above, "the crème de la crème"? After sixty years in this country, were any of the other nationalities who immigrated to this country in waves performing at or above the mean? Well, any where we were not receiving "the crème de la crème"?

The term "model minority" dates from the mid - 1960s.
<link>
Roughly twenty years after ethnic Japanese were released from internment camps and also after Magnuson act which lifted some the restrictions on ethnic Chinese imposed by the Geary act.

Until 1970 the majority of people who migrated to the US from NE Asia came as laborers not as professionals or intellectuals (such as doctors, engineers, or scientists which became more prevalent for Asian immigrants in the 80s and 90s..)