Louis:

Could youp please name and link (to the original source) the top 10 studies that show White-Black IQ differences on the order of a standard deviation or more. Preferably the ones that most control for environment directly and preferably done after 1985.

Richard Lynn's book Race Differences in Intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis lists 31 tests of blacks in the US of which about half are 1980 and after in a table on pages 42-43. These involve a variety of tests. Incidentally the highest score is on a test given by Lynn personally. The book can be ordered online from the publisher at WSPublishers.com.

His book is review in a twenty page review online at Gene Expression:<link>

Are men more intelligent, as measured by IQ, than women by 5-6 IQ points?

Jensen says no, but several recent studies by Paul Irwin (a leftist) with Richard Lynn argue for about a 5 point difference. In my opinion there is insufficient evidence to make a judgement on that at this point. Even the traditional belief of greater verbal abilities in females is now being questioned.

Louis Andrews, Realist

Bunch of crap you pointed to for no explanation of methodology.

Where are the studies that go to high achieving schools and that tests black and white students for IQ, considers the parents' IQ, and the parents' income. Preferably in a region of the country that scores best for racial integration and race relation between black and white.

Presumably even at these higher levels a genetic component could be identified for any racial differences in IQ.

Plus, I have a new criteria for work not funded by the Pioneer Fund. Surely they aren't the only ones administering IQ tests to whites and blacks.

Where are the studies that go to high achieving schools and that tests black and white students for IQ, considers the parents' IQ, and the parents' income. Preferably in a region of the country that scores best for racial integration and race relation between black and white.

<link>

I've got many more like this one from affluent Shaker Heights.

<link>

From my website - relationship in same families between IQ and economic success in life.

Louis Andrews, Realist

Thanks.

Your first link speaks to cultural values being the determining factor. Plus, I'm interested in parents' IQ too.

Any upper class statistics? Say 10 black kids in the whole school who might not receive black pressure to fail nor white racism to fail.

Your cited article is dated 2004 and I've been looking to see that once they identified the potential problem how did they address it and has there been any gains. I haven't found it but I'll keep looking around.

Thanks again.

To Spiker:

"Where are the studies that go to high achieving schools and that tests black and white students for IQ, considers the parents' IQ, and the parents' income. Preferably in a region of the country that scores best for racial integration and race relation between black and white."

There's one for Shaker Heights outside of Cleveland.. generally middle to upper middle income kids (the study was written by an African immigrant...) Guess what? The Black kids underperform:

<link>

It bears repeating.. if Blacks vis a' vis Whites are so afflicted by racism and expectations then why aren't NE Asians and Asian Indians also affected..? For that matter why do those groups consistently outperform Whites, not just on average but matched for almost every income group (at least by the SAT, which yes, I know is self selected..)..?

If Blacks are so affected by White racism and low expectations from White teachers shouldn't they have their own schools systems? Why wait for Whitey..? There's no institutional racism when you race runs the show right...?

From the comments section of your link:

"The strongest part of Ogbu's book was in the direct testimonials of the students, teachers and community members of Shaker Heights. Shaker Heights's community was very interesting because the issue of socio-economic status was eliminated and a gap between whites and blacks still existed.

Of particular interest was Ogbu's classification of two types of minorities observed in Shaker Heights; voluntary and involuntary. Voluntary minorites come from other countries to find the "American Dream", therefore doing whatever it takes to succeed in the traditional schooling system. Involuntary minorities, such as the Black community in Shaker Heights, have trouble integrating into the traditional system for many reasons based on their history of slavery.

Ogbu does a good job of balancing the viewpoints of all the players in the acheivement gap and offers suggestions for programs to close the gap."

Then, of course, we must always be a little guarded about accepting the purported identity of a comment author, but still:

I was a student of Dr. John Ogbu's and worked for him as a research assistant. Dr. Ogbu was the foremost specialist on educational issues of social and ethnic classes, focusing on inner-city minorities. I say "was" because Dr. Ogbu passed away on Thursday, Aug. 21,2003.

Just because some might say, "Ogbu didn't blame the achievement gap on White racism..." does not mean racism and cultural and class privilege has nothing to do with the educational disengagement of people of color. Dr. Ogbu fought for social justice issues and cultural understanding. He never taught where to place blame but rather, inherent in the discipline of cultural anthropology, he forced us to look at history, political economy, classism, racism, structures of cultural power and propagation, sociology, etc. Thus, from the breadth of Dr. Ogbu's work in general and this book in particular, one should conclude that the educational disengagement of minority youth (particularly Black youth) in this country has unique characteristics that are founded on various historical situations, many of which have been systematic, intentional and clearly Euro-centric and racist. Having said this, I implore the reader not to simplify Dr. Ogbu's work into a blame-shifting issue. Racism exists and race matters. This does not mean "every White person is racist." People of all colors can be racist. Cultural understanding is paramount in becoming an empathetic society. Dr. Ogbu dutifully accomplished this in his teaching and also encouraged us to fight against social and economic power structures that all too often exacerbated the disenfranchisement of certain classes of people.

So maybe when you say:

still-warm:

"It bears repeating.. if Blacks vis a' vis Whites are so afflicted by racism and expectations then why aren't NE Asians and Asian Indians also affected..? For that matter why do those groups consistently outperform Whites, not just on average but matched for almost every income group (at least by the SAT, which yes, I know is self selected..)..?

If Blacks are so affected by White racism and low expectations from White teachers shouldn't they have their own schools systems? Why wait for Whitey..? There's no institutional racism when you race runs the show right...?"

It sounds as though actually reading the book might answer your questions.

General, there seem to be five approaches to the black-white achievement gap:

(1) The most repugnant are the racists who think it proves their superiority. They are best ignored.

(2)The silliest are the deniers who claim race and IQ are "constructs", thus defining the problem out of existence.

(3)Perhaps the best-intentioned are those who believe the problem is caused by racism and poverty, and that "all" we need to do is eliminate those blights.

(4)More realistic are those blacks like Ogbu, Sowell and Cosby who focus on the dysfunctional culture and attitudes of black people that prevent them from taking advantage of opportunities, encouraging instead pathological behaviors like crime and sexual irresponsibility.

(5)Then there are the "realists" who recognize the importance of (3) and (4) but understand from the empirical evidence that there is also a genetic component that explains at least part of the different IQ distributions between whites and blacks.

Whatever the balance between environment and heredity, this difference in IQs increases the challenge of providing full opportunity to blacks in our complex economy. To pretend that this IQ difference between the two groups does not exist, as we have often done, leads to failed social policy.

into neat categories. I'd actually argue that for many of us, we'd see your categories three and four as one and the same.

As is often the case with debates such as these, you can see people arriving at the same conclusions (at least seemingly) for very different reasons. Some people will say, "No, it can't be!" because they refuse to consider the possibility. Others will say "No, you've got it wrong" and it can sound the same, if you don't read very differently.

I mention it because a number of the people who I think you'd put into your category two probably belong in their own category. They are refusing the frame the issue has been presented in (as do I, actually). August springs to mind as a thoughtful person who will not grant credence to this particular frame.

I thought you were particularly astute when you noted, once, that this is not really an issue of race. You're right - this is not an issue of race. It is an issue of disenfranchisement that transcends race. As ethnicity tends to covary with disenfranchisement, it begins to look like and issue of race, because race is such a salient variable.

When I tell you that it's premature to assume this is an issue of genetics, I am being completely serious - and more "realistic" than anyone who's had the temerity to add this to their signature. But I can also say, be patient - we will have clarity eventually. In the mean time, it behooves us to do what we can for all disenfranchised people, regardless of skin tone. It also behooves us to speak up (and loudly) against the concrete-thinking racists who would counsel otherwise.

But I do agree that, even if race were entirely a social construct, this is hardly justification for ignoring the issue. We have an educational system in which schools are funded primarily by the local tax base, and we have multigenerational problems in many urban areas. Our collective experience with Native Americans (which has come at such great cost to them) is instructive. We took an entire generation of children away from their families, and put them in boarding schools. Depriving them of all role models, and of opportunities for all the collateral learning that complements traditional education, we (they) are left with a generation of adults are not comfortable with the mantle of adulthood, and who are ill-prepared to assume it. This has now exerted a terrible impact on the next generation - these parents lacked models for parenting. When you have no model, what would otherwise feel natural, does not.

We incarcerate an unconscionable number of Black men, and then gasp at the achievement difference between Black men and women. It's not rocket science - we need, as a culture, to stop depriving entire generations of kids with role models.

I left a comment on a group blog I participate in, for one of my despondent colleagues. Maybe that'll clarify things a little. I keep meaning to write a post (or series of posts) summarizing things from my perspective, but as is often the case when I'm operating within my area - where to start? There's too much to say.

But I appreciate you trying to keep an open mind on the matter. Really, that's all I ask - be skeptical, and keep an open mind. Eventually, things will become clear. In the mean time, refrain from coming to judgment - things are much more complicated than they appear on the surface.

"It sounds as though actually reading the book might answer your questions."

Spiker had made a request asking for a control for environment and income.. I have obliged with the SAT scores vis a' vis income.. and with this study wherein apparently the incomes, neighborhoods, and schools overall were considered middle to upper middle class.

I've read large excerpts of the book..(He was one of the proponents for Ebonics in the Oakland, CA school system. I lived in Oakland at the time.. the notion that Whites and Blacks in Oakland couldn't communicate because of Ebonics was ridiculous..) .I disagree with the notion that Black under performance is heavily based upon past and current racism from Whites. But let's say that this is the problem..I'll say it again:

If Blacks are so affected by White racism and low expectations from White teachers shouldn't they have their own schools systems? Why wait for Whitey..? There's no institutional racism when you race runs the show right...?"

I am sure culture plays some component of academic failure.. but is that something White people can fix or Black people can fix..? I tend to believe the out performance of Black Africans (and to a lesser degree..) Black Caribbeans over Black Americans is due to the strong filter of immigration. Many of the Blacks who have immigrated from Africa have college degrees, in other words we are taking the cream of the crop.

Let's examine one of John Ogbu's theories versus a few other groups:

"Ogbu argued that the reason people of the same race who differed in ability from country to country could be characterized as "voluntary minorities" (immigrants who chose to come to the United States) versus "involuntary" or "caste-like" minorities (born in the United States)."

If so then why then do Latinos (the large majority of who migrated to the US within the last 60 years voluntarily..) under perform Whites and NE Asians and Asian Indians?

As for historical racism there was no shortage of it directed against ethnic Chinese and Japanese. A good portion of which were brought here as indentured servants, not withstanding their offspring academically (as well as financially) have out performed Whites in the US. Why has the historic racism not affected them..?

I did some research on Taylor on the internet. Here is just a small selection of statements that Jared has made on minorities:

On Blacks: "when blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western Civilization—any kind of civilization—disappears. And in a crisis, civilization disappears overnight."

On interracial children "I want my grandchildren to look like my grandparents. I don't want them to look like Anwar Sadat or Foo Man Chu or Whoopi Goldberg."

In a speech to the council of conservative citizens (on Youtube) Taylor pointedly alludes to the 'N' word in describing blacks.

On the Holocaust: Someone asked Taylor: "the myth of the holocaust is a millstone around the neck of any nascent white nationalist movement. Where do you stand on this? Did the Nazis genocidally wipe out 6 million jews or did they not?" Taylor's one line reply: "I’m not an expert on the subject, and it is not one into which I have looked."

Note that Taylor's closest friend is a certain Mark Weber. Mark Weber is the former editor of the neo-Nazi publication National Vanguard

Taylor believes that the United States government should work in the interests of whites above all other races. He has openly and explicitly opposed the ideal of equal citizenship for all races (refer to debate involving Steve Sailer. Note that Sailer is himself a character of highly unsavory views - but Taylor is much further to the right than even Sailer). Taylor opposed the appointment of Condoleeza Rice on purely racial grounds only.

I challenge Taylor to refute any of the above.

So is Taylor a racist then? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

"Funny, the one relatively innocuous comment I made there never made it's way onto the [Amren]board."

That's happened to me too... in every case I was sure I was not violating the terms of the board... you could try again or post your comment here.

"To go back to a previous point, if we were to conduct a study on people who make public comments about the undesirable qualities of Black people, I'm confident that we'd discover that such people are at significantly increased probability of committing crimes directed at Black people."

Well first organizations that promote anything along the lines of White racialism (or for that matter who actively urge the US government to enforce our nation's border control laws) are already heavily monitored by private organizations, there is evidence that some are monitored by government organizations. Jared Taylor has been roughed up more than once when he has tried to speak or debate.

I don't know too much about the racial profiling issue, I did find these articles:

<link>

<link>

Also as a result of more rigorous law enforcement in recent decades the murder rate of Blacks by other Blacks has dropped faster than Black on White and White on White murder:

<link>

" Shall we use this data as justification to cavity-search Mr. Taylor every time he crosses a border?"

So what group gets a cavity search every time they cross a border (do you mean the US border..?) Wouldn't this be related to the drug trade and not potential hate crimes..? By the way I have been stopped, questioned, and my luggage searched by customs 6 of the last 6 times I entered the US at SFO. I'm a middle aged US citizen with no convictions of any kind and an honorable discharged from the US military. Annoying but whatever.

"Shall we bring him in for questioning every time there is a hate crime in Virginia?"

Hmmm.. should we also bring in Al Sharpton (who routinely appears on network television who was allowed to debate with other Democratic candidates for a US Presidential nomination and whose actions and protests <b> have </b> actually coincided or preceded hate crimes..? )

<link>

How about this man if a hate crime is committed in North Carolina:

<link>

<link>

"If not, why? It's only profiling, after all, and Jared should be willing to subject himself to the same indignities he proposes for Black people. Shouldn't he?"

I can't speak for Taylor but I suspect some White Nationalists would be absolutely fine if they were every questioned every time a hate crime was committed against Blacks in their area so long as Al Sharpton was also questioned every time there was a hate crime committed against ethnic Jews or Gentiles in New York. And by the way, you do know that per capita Blacks commit hate crimes at higher rates than Whites..? (And Hispanics are lumped in with Whites when they are perpetrators but not when they are victims..)

"And what about you? Shall we assume that you're aiding and abetting?"

Hah.. go to almost any board for non-Whites centered around race and you'll find rather vicious anti-White anti-semitic (and for not as common but whatever non-White race that seems to bug the individuals..) Granted sometimes these people are shouted down but on some boards they are applauded.

I have a relative by marriage who's Asian, after a discussion with him I became curious about some Asian issues and found this site which is run by UNC Law School Professor:

http://www.modelminority.com

The signature of one of the posters is:
"Kill kill kill the White man"
Another has "Jews belong in ovens"

And oddly enough, running this board hasn't seemed to hurt the professor's career.

I've run across some boards for Black people that have equally vicious comments.. is this common among all non-Whites...? No I don't think so, but vicious anti-White and anti-semitic rhetoric is quite prevalent across the blogsphere.

John1827:

I did some research on Taylor on the internet. Here is just a small selection of statements that Jared has made on minorities:

On Blacks: "when blacks are left entirely to their own devices, Western Civilization—any kind of civilization—disappears. And in a crisis, civilization disappears overnight."

On interracial children "I want my grandchildren to look like my grandparents. I don't want them to look like Anwar Sadat or Foo Man Chu or Whoopi Goldberg."

In a speech to the council of conservative citizens (on Youtube) Taylor pointedly alludes to the 'N' word in describing blacks.

On the Holocaust: Someone asked Taylor: "the myth of the holocaust is a millstone around the neck of any nascent white nationalist movement. Where do you stand on this? Did the Nazis genocidally wipe out 6 million jews or did they not?" Taylor's one line reply: "I’m not an expert on the subject, and it is not one into which I have looked."

Note that Taylor's closest friend is a certain Mark Weber. Mark Weber is the former editor of the neo-Nazi publication National Vanguard

Taylor believes that the United States government should work in the interests of whites above all other races. He has openly and explicitly opposed the ideal of equal citizenship for all races (refer to debate involving Steve Sailer. Note that Sailer is himself a character of highly unsavory views - but Taylor is much further to the right than even Sailer). Taylor opposed the appointment of Condoleeza Rice on purely racial grounds only.

I challenge Taylor to refute any of the above.

So is Taylor a racist then? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

It appears a fair portion of what you wrote can from a wikipedia entry:

<link>

Several things.. the reference to Mark Weber does not describe Taylor as his closest friend but as a close friend...that said there is no reference or citation to support this comment..has Mark Weber praised Taylor yes.. as has the Wall Street Journal and David Horowitz (who's ethnically Jewish and a strong supporter of Israel..) Would Weber want to be a close friend of Taylor who employees ethnic Jews and is married to a Jewish woman..? Seems odd.

As for the holocaust comment you left out this:

"American Renaissance posted a response on the matter, with Taylor stating, "I understand that estimates of the death toll range from four to six million", and "to imply that I somehow doubted the Holocaust itself, is not only absurd but malicious."

Taylor is unabashedly ethnocentric but by the same standards so are many Black and Latino leaders... almost every (non-White) racial group has leaders who pointedly advance their groups interests, associate with some highly dubious characters, and have made pointedly anti - semitic and anti White remarks.

<link>

<link>

1987: Sharpton spreads the incendiary Tawana Brawley hoax, insisting heatedly that a 15-year-old black girl was abducted, raped, and smeared with feces by a group of white men. He singles out Steve Pagones, a young prosecutor. Pagones is wholly innocent -- the crime never occurred -- but Sharpton taunts him: "If we're lying, sue us, so we can . . . prove you did it." Pagones does sue, and eventually wins a $345,000 verdict for defamation. To this day, Sharpton refuses to recant his unspeakable slander or to apologize for his role in the odious affair. 1991: A Hasidic Jewish driver in Brooklyn's Crown Heights section accidentally kills Gavin Cato, a 7-year-old black child, and antisemitic riots erupt. Sharpton races to pour gasoline on the fire. At Gavin's funeral he rails against the "diamond merchants" -- code for Jews -- with "the blood of innocent babies" on their hands. He mobilizes hundreds of demonstrators to march through the Jewish neighborhood, chanting, "No justice, no peace." A rabbinical student, Yankel Rosenbaum, is surrounded by a mob shouting "Kill the Jews!" and stabbed to death. 1995: When the United House of Prayer, a large black landlord in Harlem, raises the rent on Freddy's Fashion Mart, Freddy's white Jewish owner is forced to raise the rent on his subtenant, a black-owned music store. A landlord-tenant dispute ensues; Sharpton uses it to incite racial hatred. "We will not stand by," he warns malignantly, "and allow them to move this brother so that some white interloper can expand his business." Sharpton's National Action Network sets up picket lines; customers going into Freddy's are spat on and cursed as "traitors" and "Uncle Toms." Some protesters shout, "Burn down the Jew store!" and simulate striking a match. "We're going to see that this cracker suffers," says Sharpton's colleague Morris Powell. On Dec. 8, one of the protesters bursts into Freddy's, shoots four employees point-blank, then sets the store on fire. Seven employees die in the inferno.

As for guilt by association we might as well take a look at the multi decade relationship between Farrakhan and Jesse Jackson:

Some of Farrakhan's comments about Jews:

<link>

Some of Farrakhan's comments about Whites:

<link>

Jackson and Farrakhan:

<link>

<link>

still-warm:

If Blacks are so affected by White racism and low expectations from White teachers shouldn't they have their own schools systems? Why wait for Whitey..? There's no institutional racism when you race runs the show right...?"

The most obvious answer is that this further reinforces the cultural alienation that gives rise to so many of the environmental problems contributing to the problem. A corollary answer has to do with the impact of internalization.

still-warm:

I am sure culture plays some component of academic failure.. but is that something White people can fix or Black people can fix..? I tend to believe the out performance of Black Africans (and to a lesser degree..) Black Caribbeans over Black Americans is due to the strong filter of immigration. Many of the Blacks who have immigrated from Africa have college degrees, in other words we are taking the cream of the crop.

Possibly. Odd that the somewhat lower performance of their children, then, would be attributable to "regression to the mean" rather than reflecting the continuing impact of "institutionalized racism".

still-warm:

If so then why then do Latinos (the large majority of who migrated to the US within the last 60 years voluntarily..) under perform Whites and NE Asians and Asian Indians?

Perhaps in this case we are not receiving, as you suggested was the case above, "the crème de la crème"? After sixty years in this country, were any of the other nationalities who immigrated to this country in waves performing at or above the mean? Well, any where we were not receiving "the crème de la crème"?

still-warm:

As for historical racism there was no shortage of it directed against ethnic Chinese and Japanese. A good portion of which were brought here as indentured servants, not withstanding their offspring academically (as well as financially) have out performed Whites in the US. Why has the historic racism not affected them..?

Presumably for the same reason that the Irish assimilated well, despite their being a maligned "race", and for the same reason the term "Dumbswede" seems rather ludicrous these days.

have to do with Taylor's racism?

Did someone suggest these were virtuous figures, in the same sense that you've suggested Taylor is a virtuous figure?

Does a listing in Wikipedia disqualify information?

Did Taylor oppose the nomination of Condoleeza Rice because she is Black?

"Did someone suggest these were virtuous figures, in the same sense that you've suggested Taylor is a virtuous figure?"

I don't consider Taylor fully virtuous nor Farrakhan or Sharpton fully villainous... In my opinion all of the above are advancing their tribal interests in ways they see most fit.

"Does a listing in Wikipedia disqualify information?"

As I suggested in my previous post I believe an entry in Wikipedia which has no citation nor any other supporting evidence from any other source (at least that I could find) and is incongruous with other information should be called into question.

"Did Taylor oppose the nomination of Condoleeza Rice because she is Black?"

I did a google search and I couldn't find any negative comments by Taylor in regards to Rice so I don't know.