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Re: See? More evidence...
by GeneralDisarray
LouisAndrews:

I doubt you could find a left/egalitarian conference on race that has ever allowed an opposition speaker such as Jared Taylor or Michael Levin.

Louis Andrews, Realist

Ah, but you'all are touting yourselves as the balanced, unbiased voice - the brave advocates of free intellectual inquiry. It would seem that such a position would require some attempt to present a balanced depiction of the available evidence.

So, is your friend going to the conference this year? Did you get up and walk out with him? If so, were you having fun? If not, why didn't you?

Will Duke and the Stormfront contingent be there again this year, do you think?

GeneralDisarray, Logorealist

I find this ethical stance troubling
by igravious
transboy:

I found his reasoning on the episode of Queen Latifah to be sound. I understand the negative impact it has, but at the same time if such profiling and searchers were going on continually in troubled communities, violence and other problems would be controlled. Black men in specific communities could and for the betterment of the members of those communities as a whole, should be profiled and searched randomly. It's why I also don't object to airports keeping a closer watch on people of Arab decent. It's an inconvenience and at times probably seemingly humiliating, but it is they, at present, who tend to hijack planes.

It is humiliating. It is alienating. But so what? If the community as a whole benefits we should go ahead with the plan, right? The ethical doctrine that the "good" should be maximized in such a way is called Utilitarianism and it goes back about 150 to John Stuart Mill and Jeremy Bentham (in the English speaking world anyway). I personally get squemish when we start playing moral calculus. Who gets to decide in these cases? Probably the dominant social group. We have to trust that there is no ill will or bias in the judgement of the dominant group. But what if the actions (uncoordinated or coordinated) of society as a whole gave birth to, or had some hand in, the crisis (rampant crime, terrorist threats) then what you end up doing is punishing the victim.

Justice (as Fairness) does not work this way. Each person must have a certain minimum guarantee in a social compcat for it to work, for there to be a society at all. The argument is seductive which is why you gave it some creedence and why versions of this argument seduce people all the time.

To sum up:

1) These plans can backfire - you may get blowback from a disenfranchised disaffected segment, which leads to more "repression" which...

2) It is not Just in the more abstract sense and Justice trumps Utility I would argue

3) The dominant actor may not play or may not have played a strictly neutral role

You know the way politicians say that they want to tackle crime and then they start talkning about building more prisons, being tougher on crime and beefing up the police force? But if you really want to 'tackle' crime shouldn't you try to remove the causes of inequality and try to repeal silly laws that only criminalise more or less harmless behaviour? Lesson over :) I hear where you're coming from, though.

Re: You did?
by still-warm

"Jared has had nothing directly negative, that I've seen anyway, to say about Jewish people. On the other hand, he does little to counter hate speech directed against Jewish people. I was wondering how his wife could tolerate the obvious hypocrisy, and abstinence from her vicarious defense."

Well not really true (PS my father is ethnically Jewish..)

<link>

To put it more accurately, AR has taken an implicit position on Jews by publishing Jewish authors and inviting Jewish speakers to AR conferences. It should be clear to anyone that Jews have, from the outset, been welcome and equal participants in our efforts. There has always been a minority in the AR constituency that has criticized me and AR for welcoming Jews, and there has been another minority that has criticized me and AR for not denouncing the first minority. These groups have generally treated each other with polite reserve, and expressed their bitterness only among themselves or to me—as was proper.

There are other divisions within AR. There are Christians and atheists, Democrats and Republicans, evolutionists and creationists, and advocates of different foreign policies. There has been tension within AR on these questions, but always good manners.

That changed at the most recent American Renaissance conference. At least one participant told a Jewish conferee that Jews were not welcome. One participant well known for strong views rose to denounce Jews as the historic enemy of the European people. Another called him “a f***ing Nazi,” and stormed out of the conference hall.

There will be no more disgraceful behavior of this kind if people who attend AR conferences bear in mind that Jews have a valuable role in the work of American Renaissance, and are welcome participants and speakers. Anyone who thinks otherwise has the choice of staying home or keeping his views to himself.

Re: Oh, and btw...
by still-warm
""Salt Lake City, Utah, is hardly a traditional Hispanic stronghold, but it saw its Hispanic population increase 138 percent during the 1990s, from 84,597 to 201,559."

That one actually made me chuckle, given the size of the city."

The figures are for Metro Salt Lake City:

The Salt Lake City metropolitan area spans Salt Lake, Summit and Tooele counties, and has a total estimated population of 1,018,826. Salt Lake City is further situated in a larger urban area known as the Wasatch Front, and until 2003 the Ogden-Clearfield metro area within it was considered part of the Salt Lake City metropolitan area.[2]

Re: Question for Jared Taylor
by still-warm
"

Sure you met David Duke in 1994. But you neglect to mention that you spent 2 whole days with him in 2006. Dining with him last year is harder to remember than bumping into him in a lobby 13 years ago? Unbelievable.

You also don't let on that the stormfront.org neo-nazis headed by the klansman Don Black made up 1/3rd of the attendees to your last convention.

Typical. Act offended, but when it comes down to it... you know who your bread & butter audience is. Looking at your website, it is clear who you speak to and who you speak for."

Like it or not Duke has a huge following, if it is true, Jared Taylor spent two whole days as you say (never mind that several staff writers on Amren are Jewish... who apparently he hangs out with much more...) then it was likely to try to get him to moderate his frankly bizarre attitudes towards Jews.

Here's that link again when comes down firmly on the side of Jewish participants at AMren:

<link>

Re: Not quite.
by still-warm

"And get with it, man. Leaders of the modern racist movement leave the stomping and the screaming to the foot-soldiers: they dress in suits and ties, speak more in sorrow than in anger about the inferiority of the Lesser Breeds and generally keep their own noses clean. That way, folks will be impressed at how reasonable they all seem."

What is your opinion on largely mainstream Jesse Jackson very long term association with the virulently anti-Semitic Farrakhan..?


<link>

<link>

<link>

Re: Oh?
by still-warm

"What are your thoughts about the Duke anti-Semitic diatribe from the floor last year? There weren't people cheering the prospect that Israel could be "wiped off the map"?"

Duke is deluded.. period, his antics have been addressed by Mr. Taylor:

<link>

Still...
by GeneralDisarray

that's not what the article stated. Anyone with a passing familiarity with the city would've been shocked by the figure you cited - as well they should be. People who live here do not consider Tooele and Summit county part of the metro area - both are separated from Salt Lake City by a mountain range.

Your figure was an exaggeration. If you meant metro area, you should've said metro area. Or did you mean Wasatch Front?

You left some things out.
by GeneralDisarray

"There will always be disagreement and debate in our ranks on many issues, including the role Jews may or may not have played in creating the crisis we face. Some people in the AR community believe Jewish influence was decisive in destroying the traditional American consensus on race. Others disagree."

So basically, he's granting equal credence to the Jewish contingent and anti-Semites of the David Duke variety.

I can understand why you left the above section out.

The above comment addressed...
by GeneralDisarray

the convivial atmosphere portrayed by the person responding above. I'm sure the atmosphere was neither fun nor friendly when Duke was holding forth on the evil Jews.

And Taylor hardly comes down firmly on the side of the Jews. What he does is grant equal credence to both sides. This is advocacy? This is sacrificing logic for the sake of preserving the peace with a neo-Nazi organization.

Re: Still...
by still-warm

"Your figure was an exaggeration. If you meant metro area, you should've said metro area. Or did you mean Wasatch Front?"

The Wikipedia article previously referenced states there are about 300,000 Hispanics in the Wasatch front. I didn't say it, Jared Taylor said "Salt Lake City", sure he should have said Salt Lake City Metro... I saw a discussion about this on Amren but apparently the article did not get updated to say Salt Lake Cit Metropolitan Area.

Re: Still...
by GeneralDisarray

Sorry - was that Wasatch Front or Salt Lake City Metro area? Different answers, right?

I know - you didn't write it. I didn't look at too many articles - the one by Lynn using MMPI data was really enough. I just clicked on the other because it was a relatively recent issue, and happened across that. It's a misleading number (though makes for some dramatic effect), and that's what the question asked.

Re: You left some things out.
by still-warm

"So basically, he's granting equal credence to the Jewish contingent and anti-Semites of the David Duke variety. I can understand why you left the above section out."

Nope... he was trying to bring them around to more rational thinking. Obviously it didn't work. (And I didn't agree with his previous attempts but he does like to play diplomat..) Apparently he's given up.,it is highly unlikely that Duke or his followers or many garden variety of neo-Nazis will be attending future conferences. Duke has made it plain he thinks Jared Taylor is now a tool of "the Jews".

Re: The above comment addressed...
by still-warm

"And Taylor hardly comes down firmly on the side of the Jews. What he does is grant equal credence to both sides. This is advocacy?"

Certainly David Duke and various sundry types believed so... even the Southern Poverty Leadership Center characterized Jared Taylor as being an opponent of antisemitism:

"What follows are excerpts from the AR List, a discussion group moderated by Ian Jobling and Shawn Mercer, who work for American Renaissance founder and editor Jared Taylor, an opponent of anti-Semitism. Mercer allows "dissenting voices" on many topics, but deletes most postings excoriating the Jews, endorsing Holocaust denial, mentioning "ZOG" (an acronym for the "Zionist Occupation Government"), or coming from the neo-Nazi Overthrow.com or Vanguardnewsnetwork.com sites. The AR List moderator also deletes "references to nonwhites in 'animal terms.'"



Re: Still...
by still-warm

"Sorry - was that Wasatch Front or Salt Lake City Metro area? Different answers, right?"

Yes different answers.. I had seen a reference previously to the Salt Lake City Metro area but I couldn't find it...

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