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Re: I Blame Ayn Rand
by Woolley
Awesome goddam post. I read Atlas Shrugged on the sand at Marina Del Rey in the late 70's. I knew it was bullshit then and still think it was bullshit after all these years. Ayn Rand was a thinker, her vision was not inclusive at all. The reason I threw that book away in disgust was because her world only rewarded the very few at the expense of the very many. Dressing it up with fancy storytelling turned that book into a "Carpetbaggers" version of "The Great Gatsby". Fantastic post.
Re: Government caused the great depression
by the true conservative

Look, it's very simple. Unemployment numbers were on their way down before FDR instituted the New Deal. As New Deal policies were implemented in the mid 1930's they spiked back up. Then they stayed up until we started gearing up for WWII.

It is not coincidental that unemployment started improving as soon as our government stopped waging war on business and instead sought to employ business in waging war on our mortal enemies.

Re: Government caused the great depression
by the_slasher14

I don't see how you can read the numbers that way. The numbers went UP from 1932 to 1933 and then went down only a little bit in 1934. The trend continued down for three more years, accelerating somewhat, WHILE FDR WAS DOING ALL THIS BAD STUFF YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT. Even though the intervention into business that was the most invasive -- the NRA -- got shot down in 1935. Think about that -- the program that, according to you, should have caused the most damage to the economy came, and then went, and the trend line didn't change at all.

So you're saying, no, no, Hoover gets the credit for the four years (1934-37) of improving numbers (even though the numbers got worse in 1933 AFTER he was out of office), FDR the blame for the one bad year, and then...who gets credit for the three improving years after 1938? And, of course, government intervention in business was NEVER greater than it was during WWII, and yet, as you acknowledge, unemployment essentially ended.

You are cherry-picking the data, and it's fundamentally dishonest unless you can show me something REAL to back up your words. It's like people who give Reagan the credit for the Clinton boom years even though Reagan had been out of office for four years, with a recession in the interim, and even though Clinton REVERSED Reagan's signature tax cut.

I'm not interested in what you think, unless you can back it up with data. You demanded that I do so, and I provided it, and now you basically ignore it and repeat your original point. I think we better end this discussion because I have the feeling I'm up against someone who isn't interested in an honest discussion.

Ayn was the FIRST mainstream pro-choice author
by cassandra
Whenever I hear people say that being pro-choice is a liberal position, I always think of her.
Re: then it begs the question...
by jeqal
Daysman:

Is something wrong with Obama's faith in Christ? Why did you think I would make a good writer for an impending Obama Liberation Theology administration? What makes any of us differ in Christ?


If you haven't read anything about corporate greed, wake up, it's out there and it has grown in philosophical circles to the point where it has it's own niche in our business culture. I wasn't addressing industrialization as a means of providing wealth, I can't imagine you got that from my post.


If you read Obama's autobiography (ghostwritten) then you would have read the part where he says he joined the church to get his "church cred". Secondly, he endorses global taxation.

In response to looking at the Great Depression through analytical eyes. From a personal perspective my grandma who lived through the depression as a girl said that if it was not for FDR she and her brothers and sisters would have literally starved to death. From a street level it was that bad folks. My family will be forever indebted to him for that.

To skip to another post.

Welfare has been abused. When I read papers where a girl of 16 is on her third kid and in the paper her grandma is quoted as saying "we are real proud of her", with her three kids we now have 840.00 per month. Then there is something seriously wrong with the system. Firstly, a child born of such morons has little to no hope of knowing that intelligence exists. Secondly, it creates a non productive sub society which has no benefit to the hole except to show how misplaced benevolence can be. Lastly, it also creates a circumstance where the new arrival is seen as a commodity SEE articles in Wyandotte Michigan where father of newborn whose mother was on welfare sexually molested her at three days old. SEE also Detroit Michigan article where woman and boyfriend charged with murder, when checking the amount of children that the mother was declaring for welfare. Bones were found in the attic. They had killed the newborn in order to get the extra money and hidden the corpse in the insulation of the house.

Re: Government caused the great depression
by the true conservative

Question: When did we start gearing up for WWII?

Answer that, and it will answer the rest.

p.s. It was years before Pearl Harbor.

Re: Government caused the great depression
by the_slasher14

Jeez, what the hell do you think I've been saying all along? I didn't deny that the war (and military spending) ended the Depression -- OF COURSE it did. What I said was that military spending wasn't any different from any other kind of spending that Roosevelt undertook, except that he was politically unable to undertake ENOUGH of it (and, to be fair, I have no idea if he really had the stomach for it until the war demanded it). What I got back from you was that the Depression would have ended if Roosevelt had simply done nothing at all -- worse, your tag line said he CAUSED the Depression, which is simply bullshit. (Milton Friedman, a conservative economist if ever there was one but an honest man, blamed the Depression on monetary policy by the Fed in 1931 and 1932. He didn't think FDR got us OUT of the Depression, but he didn't blame him for it, either.)

To take all of this back to where it was: the Depression ended when the government taxed and spent massive amounts of money, and rigorously controlled wages, prices, and production during WWII. There is NOTHING about military production that is different from any other kind of production, other than that military production when the nation's existence is at stake is politically acceptable and other kinds of production are not.

Look, I'm not interested in this discussion any more. You toss out theories but you don't back them up with facts, and when I do research that indicates that your theories have holes in them, you invent new theories. I'm tired of this. If you want to believe that the Depression would have ended if FDR had done nothing, go with God. I believe it ended because of WWII, and the only thing that could have ended it any earlier would have been WWII levels of taxation, spending, and government control which were politically unacceptable in peacetime.

It's been fun but I'm bored by now.

Re: Anthem
by Liberal Patriot
TheGeniusofAynRand:

Good lord, Ayn Rand was a vicious old shrew that the world's much better off without. I've never read a single one of her doorstops mind you (much better as packing material, or insulating your walls), but for all the marginally-bright assholes that have used her cut-rate philosophy to justify their extraordinary sense of entitlement and to obscure their luck in the birth lottery, then she's suffered a mountainous cosmic debt.

(And to how said may confuse notions of meritocracy with themselves, that was a nice deconstruction on their own terms.)

I like to recommend Matt Ruff's Sewer, Gas, and Electric as a comic Rand-tidote. (It's been so long since I've read it--2004 must be a reprint--I should go back and see if it's as near amusing as I remember. He had the Empire State Building sustain a plane crash, if I recall, which can't go over so well these days.) Good stuff.

You remind me of the Republicans and Right Wingers who never saw "Farenheit 911" but knew all about it and trashed it. Ms. Rand's novels are fiction. And much more intriguing than the other "great work" of fiction you call the bible. At least her philisophical ideals were rooted in reality and, to put it more plainly, give one the natural courage to look at bullshitting thieves and name them for what they are without batting an eyelash.

Tell me, which union do you belong to? And yes, I am a Liberal.

Re: Anthem
by the_slasher14

I don't know about the guy whose posts you're replying to, but I HAVE read "Atlas Shrugged," several times. It is indeed a work of fiction, but to say that her philosophical points are grounded in reality is nonsense, unless you accept her description of American life without question.

Which you really cannot do. When somebody describes the United States in a book that ran to over 1,000 paperback pages without mentioning that ten percent of its citizens were, during the so-called Golden Age she describes and right up to the time Atlas Shrugged was published, kept in virtual slavery because of institutionalized racism. How is this "grounded in reality?"

Can you name even ONE of the various inventions she describes that exists today? Rearden metal? Sound waves as a weapon of mass destruction? Power drawn from static electricity in the air? Even shale oil isn't profitable yet? And the passenger railroads of her heroine were sold to the government about fifty years ago because no private corporation has ever figured out how to run them profitably.

On the other hand, the government she so despises can claim credit for having developed atomic energy, putting men on the moon, inventing the Internet, and most of the communications developments which are based upon satellite technology. So exactly how is ANYTHING Rand wrote about in "Atlas Shrugged" grounded in reality? It's grounded in exactly what you said it was -- FICTION.

Even Galt's Gulch -- Rand's Nirvana on Earth where everyone was "moral" and therefore the system worked -- is a obvious fraud. You don't build a copper smelter in the mountains of Colorado by yourself, as Francisco D'Anconia is supposed to have done, and even if you could do this (without a labor force?), how long would a valley belching smoke -- as smelters do -- remain hidden? Galt's Gulch worked because Rand simply dispensed with the realities of industrial production and assumed that a small handful of people could create such materials out of thin air. She describes how Dagny Taggart would build a railroad up a mountainside in Galt's Gulch, but how could that ever have been done without the industrial infrastructure that railroads require? There is NO reality in what she writes.

Altas Shrugged works only if you submit to a massive suspension of belief. It is legitimate to ask one's readers to suspend belief in a work of fiction -- it's done all the time -- and I would be the last to deny that Atlas Shrugged is a well-written novel. What it is NOT is a model upon which to base anything REAL, and that is what two generations of rightists have tried to get people to do?

If Rand were only a novelist trying to sell a book, I'd have no argument with her. But in fact, she was intensely political. In the 1970s, she published a small magazine -- the Diode -- which served as a political primer for her followers. By a wild coincidence, I used to read it and was also reading the house organ of the Chinese Communist Party (Peking People's Review) at the same time (some left-wing friends, knowing my anti-Communist views, got me a subscription as a joke). They were strikingly similar -- not in their political views, of course, but in the slavish way in which the line promoted by the Leader (Rand and Mao) was adhered to by all the other articles in the publications -- even to the point of repeating the same catch phrases.

But Rand scrupulously avoided dealing with a critical contradiction in her political -- the fact that the leaders of the political party which she supported were NOTHING like the people in her novel. Richard Nixon used the police powers of government to do exactly what she feared Communism would do. The author whose heroine told a national radio audience, with pride, that she had committed adultery found herself supporting politicians whose religiosity was stifling. She called upon her followers to vote for the man who had instituted wage-and-price controls, "as the lesser of two evils." I'm not making this up, friend. It was in the Diode. So not only were her beliefs not grounded in reality, but when she DID confront the reality of American politics, she sold her beliefs down the river.

Finally, if you want to read a mirror image of Atlas Shrugged, try "The Iron Heel," by Jack London, which also posits an America that never existed (there are no blacks in his book, either, nor is the civil war mentioned at all). The book is supposed to be a description of the dark days of capitalism as seen from a prosperous socialist society of the future. Unlike Rand, London TRIED to ground his book in reality by using copious footnotes to demonstrate the evils of the capitalism of his day -- Rand, to the contrary, simply says that the capitalism of the post-Civil War period was good and moral and expects you to agree. The footnotes don't help, because the conclusions London draws are as fanciful as Galt's Gulch.

Look, if you want to have a SERIOUS discussion of Atlas Shrugged, I'm up for it, but I will not put up with the kind of thing you've done here, which is to state a point (that her philosophy is grounded in reality) that is crucial to your argument and is completely non-self-evident. I've been debating Randians since 1961, and with some of them I have had productive discussions -- the ones who don't try to tell me that Atlas Shrugged describes something real.

The rest, who try to tell me that anyone who opposes unfettered capitalism is a "bullshitting thief," bore me. Which are you?

And I haven't belonged to a union since 1963.

Wow! the_slasher 14 explodes!
by Liberal Patriot

Another Toohey on the horizon!

Let me use a quote from 'Atlas Shrugged' because it is appropriate to your post. "It is not advisable, [slasher 14], to venture unsolicited opinions. You will save yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listeners." Or in this case, readers.

Perhaps you should take a closer look at my original post and attempt to comprehend exactly what it says rather than what you are assuming it says.

I'll give you a hint:

Blame yourself.
by Liberal Patriot
Gotcha.
Re: Wow! the_slasher 14 explodes!
by the_slasher14

I didn't "explode." I challenged your assertion that Rand's fiction is "rooted in reality." Typically for a Randian, you fail to address a single point I raised, confident that you're right without having to produce any evidence of it, and putting the burden upon ME to figure out why by reading a bunch of books that will tell me that, gee, what a surprise, Rand was right. An adult would have given me at least SOME explanation of that assertion -- you, instead, point me to a library of books which will repeat what you said. You are an intellectual coward, sir, and a supercilious one at that.

It does surprise me, however, that you cite works by Branden as a reference, since Rand specifically disowned Branden in the 1970s in the strongest possible language (which was, as I noted earlier, aped in true Comintern fashion by her fellow editors in the Diode.) Has he been rehabilitated like the purged Bolsheviks of yore? Never mind, I don't really care.

Goodby and good luck there in Galt's Gulch.

Re: Wow! the_slasher 14 explodes!
by Liberal Patriot

It went right over your head, didn't it? You never even made the connection. The hilarious thing about this is that you put yourself on the spot and can't wriggle your way out of it. You attempt to dismiss my rebuke with an impotent shrug shallow banter rather than admit your error. Why should I waste my time rehashing what I had written if you never got it in the first place?

Now go back and read my original post, again, and then ponder just who the 'intellectual coward' is. Then go and gaze into a mirror.

Then enroll in a reading and comprehension class at the local high school.

Re: Wow! the_slasher 14 explodes!
by Liberal Patriot
PS - if you still haven't figured it out and attempt to dismiss this last bitch-slappin I gave you, I'll give you a hint after your response...if you get it all wrong..again. good grief! what a moron.
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