I'm wondering aloud here if the whole new age druid thing is nothing more than a cynical movement. I just can't believe people believe this stuff - hell I couldn't believe people believed this stuff 2 thousand years ago and more. While most religions hold an end-belief that is non-provable, at least they base their literature, examples, and concepts on something that is either historical or easily arguable. "Jesus died for our sins" While it isn't a demonstratable statement, it at least is conceivable and has basis in history - we know this man existed. Buddha was an actual person and features quite prominently in the history of the area. Lao Tzu existed, Hinduism has many historical connections. But this new age thing, madness. What is it based on, what is it's history, how is it connected with the Druid movement of the late Roman Empire? What are it's justifications for it's beliefs? Why tolerate the insubordination during cermony? I have no doubt that a druidic coven in the dark ages was so strict as to make a Kingdom Hall look downright libertine in comparison. The differences between then and now alone make me believe this nothing more than cynicism and boredom.

For a tribe living in darkest Africa or Amazon rainforest I'm willing to accept shamanism. These people don't have sufficient world experience to be expected to know or believe any better. Not to discredit their beliefs as invalid, but the maturity of their beliefs can't be expected to evolve given their limited experience in the world outside their tribal area. For a person who hold druidic beliefs there's no such excuse.

Hate me all you want for dismissing your beliefs as insanity - I won't blame you.

Eigenvector wrote:

"Jesus died for our sins" While it isn't a demonstratable statement, it at least is conceivable and has basis in history - we know this man existed.

Sure lots of people believe this, but I haven't seen any unequivocal proof or even convincing contemporary documents that prove it, certainly no unbiased, non christian sources that a Jesus that matches the bible lived, raised the dead, walked on water, turned loaves into fishes, was crucified, died, and rose from the dead.

The differences between then and now alone make me believe this nothing more than cynicism and boredom."

This seems equally, if not more applicable, to most if not all religions that are still being practiced.

All religion seems to require some sort of programming, indoctrination, or a willing suspension of disbelief. Doesn't seem any more (and probably is no less) true of neo-paganism, Wicca, etc. than of the more popular religions.

Except for one thing. The Wiccan priest who introduced me to Wicca told me quite cheerfully, "All of this is in your head. None of this is real."

It's about celebrating nature, and the feeling of that experience itself. There's nothing to "believe" per se. It's understood to be a framework of metaphors, at least by people who practise it. The above posts show that not everyone gets that.

There's a tradition that when a meal is shared at a Wiccan sabbath, a plate of food is set aside and then left "for the fairies". I once asked if we could come up with an alternative since really the raccoons got to the food before any "fairies" did. The hostess of that gathering rolled her eyes and said, "what, you think I don't know the raccoons have been eating it the whole time?"

I don't believe that Jesus was a real person exactly. I think he is probably an amalgamation or various people and concepts. Creating a diety that is on Earth as a mortal man yet is capable of miracles through a more distant type of god is just more relatable. Humans needed a god concept that was more like them. That's where Jesus comes in. God himself was just too superior and too awesome in power to relate to every day man. I think that Jesus is just an evolution of a pre-existing belief.

I think they'd take one look at an Easter pageant and decide that the planet was just too barbaric to bother trying to cultivate any kind of relationship. Pagans don't have pictures of a tortured man hanging on a cross and insist that each member of the community should consider themselves an essentially flawed, guilty and unworthy creation. Frankly, seeking harmony with others and the environment, practicing peacefulness with all, cultivating joy and harmony, respecting the essential reality of the changing seasons and seeking to fit oneself into an order larger than the individual seems a lot less like BS than the whole Christian deal. Is it crazy to believe that the world doesn't conform to our endless whims and our attempt to make that happen are damaging to the earth and ourselves? Again, it seems preposterous to me that anyone would believe that joy will come in the afterlife, rather than by leading a harmonious life on earth. Is being a priest or a pastor any more logical than shamanism? Really? Catholics believe that the bread and wine is actually turned into the body and blood of Christ. Euuuwww! Not only are we looking at this tortured guy, but now we're going to EAT him too? Yuck...and all because some bastardized book has been passed down for generations, continually altered by each succeeding culture and language. Yes, that sums up "tradition" for you. Sorry, but I still have a hard time figuring out why supposedly advanced civilization would tolerate this kind of silliness and folderol...and pay lots of money to do so! If that's not insane, I don't know what is. And just for the record, pagans aren't haters. Most witches believe that they are honor-bound to bring to the world only the best and purest intentions and wishes. If you consider that everything you send into the world will come back on you times 3, you develop a lot of caution about the quality of your existence on earth. Can you imagine such a credo being part of Christian culture? The whole gig would grind to a stop. It would be a distinct upgrade to the Golden Rule. If the destruction of the physical world and endless divisions, hatred and wars doesn't seem insane to you, that strikes me as something to notice :) Just as a minor note, neither Buddha or Lao Tzu were ever considered "divine". That craziness belongs to the Christians. So good luck with that insanity thing.

Well that's great and everything, but what about Buddha or Lao Tzu? Christianity isn't the only religion in the world you know.

It's very interesting that you state it like that. Your description of it does not fill the definition of religion - which means the government can remove it from the list of religions it needs to respect.

Your statement, while candid, also torpedoes it.

However I would still like to understand your practices as they relate to the historical druids - that is a far more interesting topic than having me bash your particular habits.

Eig--

Consider the reality in most churches. Would you say they are any more orderly or in glorious perfect harmony than the situation we just read about?

In one church I have known well for more than two decades, one minister left after an affair with the church secretary, one got divorced because his wife who was also a minister was more interested in missions aboroad than being at home with him, and a slew of bullying, cat fighting, and backstabbing is an ongoing thing in other departments.....and I would still call this a good church with a few less than truly christian members. Like most churches, people get into positions of "responsibility" and it translates to them to "power".

The Roman Catholic church can hardly be accused of lack of documents and organized agendas, yet look what has gone on there for DECADES. The very fact that they saw themselves as above the law has allowed unspeakable crime to be protected from prosecution.

Elsewhere, a baptist church Deacon was found to be the BTK killer......I guess we see how much of a believer he turned out to be.

And oranization is hardly an indication of how good a church is. Reverand Jim Jones got thousands to follow him to Guyana to build their "paradise"....kool aid anyone?

If anything it proves that like any human institution, all religion is imperfect and largely hard to demonstrate as a fact to others because of its imperfection. Yet for untold thousands of years humans keep making religions......why? Well without it to some our lives seem without purpose and death is something we fear because it truly is the end of it all for the self aware entity.

I often wonder how it would be if at a certain age where our reasoning skills are reliable we shouldnt be told all about death and basically told "you have a limited lifespan to accomplish your dreams and goals". How many countless hours do we spend on an afterlife we hope exists, how many dreams do we give up on to placate religions, traditions, etc which have no real bearing on our lives?

Ii think the lesson of having a little ceremony of two was very eye opening.....how many major churches began with a separation from a big one that had gone out of control-Martin Luther would be proud.

I enjoy Sundays.....I do a lot of introspection, a lot of mental conversing with someone I cannot show you but "Feel" is there, and generally spend a day where I make it a point to be with family and friends....SOMETIMES I even go to church though I do it for my family and to show them I care about them--not for any chuch authority or fear of Gods wrath. I guess you could say I believe in God but not religions. I ask no one to follow me and I certainly dont ask to be lead by other humans.

Perhaps the best thing to do is let these two witches be themselves and let us be ourselves and see if a little respect and tolerance of others beliefs might accomplish more than derision or intolerance.....in fact tolerance was always the way of Jesus and at no point did he ask us to celebrate his personal life and death....a point lost on his fan club but not on anyone who can read a book.....

Speaking as an atheist, I myself do not care what others believe - so long as they keep it to themselves. I can see how someone could be confused having just read my post in which I basically dismiss their beliefs whole cloth. However it wasn't really my intention on crushing their ideas, more exasperation on how the article presented it. So while gray areas exist in belief systems, modern pagans aren't doing a very good job of presenting themselves as anything other than a social club.

I truly do not know anything about modern druidism other than what I read in articles like this - and as such probably do dismiss their beliefs uncharitably. However I do know about ancient paganism and wonder what the connections are between today's pagan and the dark age pagan. I wonder because I get the same questions when I see people practicing tarot card reading and remember that in fact modern tarot cards are largely the invention of the Golden Dawn whereas before that tarot cards were used like any other normal deck of playing cards. So I see modern pagans and wonder to myself if the taint of cynicism is present there as well. Note I am probably confusing the terms druid and pagan because frankly the relationship between the two is not at all clear.

Finally, RML you aren't anyone to be lecturing people about peace love and understanding - go back and read pretty much all of your posts.

There seems to be a lot of argument about the relative merits of various religions.  But that wasn't really the question.  Christianity may be inferior to wiccanism as a system of beliefs for making humans act well to each other, but people actually believe there was this dude way back when that had supernatural powers and did some act to make the universe a better place.  Christians actually believe the gobbledygook they spout (generally speaking).  From my brief contact with paganism on this thread and elsewhere the answer for wiccans seems to be that they do not believe the gobbledygook they spout.  It just makes them feel good (and I suspect a lot of the dudes that show up do it for the women).  That's perfectly fine, I have no problem with it.  But am I understanding this correctly? Has anybody ran into wiccans that that believe they are somehow communing with an actual self-aware entity/entities outside the normal reality of humans?

I guess when we discuss belief, the question is whether the pagans think that their god(s) are as real as the christians and others believe theirs to be. I have to believe the answer is yes, otherwise the holiday and the ceremony are rather needless.

I'm a practicing Pagan. I figured it would be nice to state that off the bat so y'all know that I know what's what.

1. Warlock is an insulting term. It's from Gaelic and means "traitor"- male witches are just witches. If you run into a guy calling himself a warlock, he's either a gamer or has no idea what he's doing.

2. One man's nonsense is another man's faith. Some call it "superstition." It's just a matter of finding a set of philosophies that touch and make sense of your experiences on Earth. I grew up Christian, Catholic specifically. Looking at it from the outside, it's nonsense. If that's what you believe, it's pretty darn powerful. Same thing with Paganism.

So stephanieheredia-

I'm still a little unclear. To be clear: (Assuming your particular pagan worship practice involves invoking gods, goddesses, demons, spirits, magick, whatever.) You believe that there are supernatural entities or powers, supernatural defined as things not currently explainable by science, that you somehow connect with or control via your ceremonies. Similair to the way a Christian believes she can talk to God or Jesus, please them, and receive favors from them via their ceremonies.

Is that correct?

My belief system works like that, yeah. The only problem with talking about it: there's no way to do it without sounding completely flaky... :)

And it's Pagan, capital P. It's the name of a religion.

Thanks for clarifying. I was genuinely curious and non-judgemental in my question. Although I will politely dissent about the capitalization. At least insofar as I was using the word, "pagan" would be a broad term for any non-Abrahamic religion. From Aztec human sacrificers to those folks in France that used to throw bread into the local lake.

At least I spelled magick correctly. ;)