Yoicks, I didn't mean to make a risk a choice in every decision. But I do think taking safe risks from time to time is a good way for kidz to develop self-confidence (Upward Bound).

ex -- teen son says, Mom, can I backpack around Europe by myself?

Mom says, hell no. But you can go to Upward Bound here in Maryland or go to Europe with a school-sponsored group of other teens.

As for jammies or brushing teeth first, sometimes let the kid choose the toothpaste or jammies when you both go shopping.

Yes, that's what I meant. From our perspective it was about seeing how they can make decisions -- and the process of that is teaching them, consciously as parents, how to do that.

I think my point was that Joe and I, neither one, had parents like that. But through our own experiences, mistakes, pitfalls, etc we happened upon some kind of path that included doing this with our kids.

It wasn't perfect. It didn't protect them from making mistakes. It didn't ensure they would/could avoid bad stuff.

But it did bring conscious decision-making into the mix at a much earlier time than either of us had dealt with it.

I think that ended up being a good thing.

By the time our kids drove (and out here in the hinterlands that is 16 and basically non-negotiable since there is no mass transit) we-the-parents felt pretty comfortable with the skills they had, we knew our kids, and we knew what we were up against. We weren't living under illusions and neither were the kids.

We still had to deal with a lot of crap. But I don't any longer think that dealing with crap during teenager years is a sign of parental failure. Yet another closely-held belief hitting the rocks there.

You're so mature.

Well, at least you didn't say "old."

Think of me as Max!

Just so long as you don't think of me as KW. Incidentally, look at this great post I just found at "Movies."

<link>

Nevermind about your other PF posts, which are addressed to Soccerfreak. Depending on how or whether he reacts, I may post some things to him myself.

My parent/daycare/teacher classes are all aimed at under-5, but even with teens, it can be hard for parents to know what their child is able to do on his own. Funny you should mention Europe, I wouldn't have let my teen go, but now that he's 20, he had my blessing, and did a fabulous job all by himself. Couldn't be prouder. And now he owes me a Bachelor's degree *L *

Another good trick for little kids (besides letting them choose brands etc) also works for Alzheimer's patients. They both can balk about doing something (putting on a coat to go outside, brushing teeth, etc), but if you just drop the conversation and wait a bit, they may forget they didn't want to do it, or alternately you can distract them with a story while you assist them in doing whatever it is, so that they're not worried about having to make a decision, they're too caught up in your story to argue about the coat/teeth/whatever.

Thanks, artandsoul for your wonderful post. It was very thought provoking. The thread took an unfortunate turn initially to the philisophically critical (sorry Inkberrow) to more uplifting discussion of childrearing, Thanks, Iso for some excellent suggestions. Mine are full grown now, 28 and 23, live nearby and are in contact on occasion. Not as often as I'd like, but hey are just like me when I was their age. They are entitled to live their own lives.

From your first post, it called to mind several things:

Mother Theresa said something about not everyone can do great things but everyone can do small things with great love.

George Carlin said we whine too much: If your needs aren't being met, adjust your needs.

Somebody said, Expect nothing, you won't be disappointed!

Jesus heard his disciples arguing among themselves who was most important. He told them, He who would be first shall be last, and he who is last shall be first. He who is the servant to the least of the people shall be first in the kingdom of heaven.

(Maybe this would be better in FB fray, but he wasn't talking about a fluffy cloud place, he was talking about the kingdom of heaven being here and now: in transforming our own consciousness- turning around everything we had been taught as in your top post.)

To serve others is the highest calling to which we may aspire. We should be "unselfish in service and devotion to the welfare of others." It is hard to do and we always seem to fall short, but it's a nice ideal to work toward.

Sorry if I got preachy artandsoul, these are the thoughts your post brought to mind. They are simple and unworthy. I wish you the best.

I always like hearing from you THOTH and welcome your thoughts in any thread in which I'm posting!

I hold Mother Theresa in very high esteem, and find her as inspiring as anyone I've ever heard of. She is the epitome of the adage that for something to truly be meaningful to you it has to affect what you do. Her life encourages me to do small things ... I will never be like her, but I can still feel inspired to do something small, something humble, and something loving.

I think the self-reflection that leads me to examine some of my closely-held beliefs also ends up helping me be of more service to others. When I have more self-awareness, I release any agenda I have brought with me into that service, and let it just be ... on its own... no return necessary.