[Forget what you think you know about reason, rationalism, the rational mind, dogma, dogmatic inconsistencies, paradoxes, logical paradoxes, Gödel, his 'Inconsistency Theory', incompleteness and all the rest of that mental insulation above.]

1) Do you believe in god? (yes/no)

2) If answer to 1) is yes, then why do you believe in god? What's the basis of your faith?

3) Do you believe in the resurrection? (yes/no)

4) What message is to be taken from the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

5) Do you believe you will also rise from the dead and join god in heaven? (yes/no)

6) Do you believe in an afterlife? (yes/no)

7) If answer to 6) is yes, then why do you believe in an afterlife?

8) If you believe in an afterlife then does that belief influence how you live your life? (yes/no)

9) If answer to 8) is yes, then can you explain why, how, in what manner?

10) Is believing in an afterlife an important tenet of Christian faith? Explain.

the relationship between the diameter and the circumference of a given circle is part of that geometric construct. If you have a circle, then you automatically have a diameter and a circumference, and the relationship between those two gives us pi. Pi is an incomplete fraction, the division goes on forever.

so circles by nature, are not at all complete. Of course, this analysis might not be altogether complete....

<link>

is important and the answer is yes. Why? Before I answer that, I can tell you that my answer isn't going to work for you. Find your own. What I do know is that you ain't gonna find it if you don't look. Like finding your car keys, it's always the last place you would think to look.

That was a very strange and pivotal day, but now every day is like that because I know where to look.

The Jesus thing? I can't give you a short answer and you don't need one. I think there is a lot of powerful truth wrapped up in that story and the packaging is almost as important as the message because the message you get depends on how you unwrap it. That's pretty much how faith works.

I don't think much about an afterlife, I'm still working on this one and I don't multitask real well. I liked what catnapping wrote. That's why I mentioned old souls. I think there are a lot of options after the mortal coil is shed. That's not the point.

Is believing in an afterlife an important tenet of Christian faith? It's not as important as you might think. Being close to God is. My job is to live in the moment. God takes care of the future. That is how faith works. Faith is not uncomplementary to the rational mind. Each has its strength and weaknesses and figuring out how to get the two to work together is the challenge of this world. If I think, therefore I am, then I believe, therefore I shall be.

funny sometimes.

I didn't ask you these questions so that I could have your epiphany to apply to my own life, and I didn't ask because I'm searching for a paradigm that might work for lost me; I asked because you are positing an analogy from Gödel's mathematical logic that you feel "has found the Achilles heel of rational thought", and you are applying this analogy to my question about the existence of the afterlife in order to assert that "there are truths that we can never know". I've told you elsewhere that I find your reasoning [applied to this topic] spurious, evasive and a trifle smug. I don't know why people can't or refuse to stay on topic, without making false and illogical assumptions, without addressing the issue sans the distractions of analogical or anecdotal evidence, and without relying on silly abstractions. I don't understand why direct questions cannot be answered directly and honestly.

Your Thanksgiving story or testimonial is a very poignant one. It is told with humility, grace, much compassion [especially towards yourself], and it demonstrates an openness and eagerness to begin a healing process. You recounted the narrative beautifully and accurately. I know those abject, barren fields just out of East St. Louis that lead to Belleville, Il, and into Fairview Heights. Those fields now sport strip clubs and biker bars. Maybe not when you did your pilgrimmage, but when I lived in St. Louis. Anyway, that's irrelevant. What's pertinent is that you were at rock-bottom and were induced to rekindle a dormant faith. You lit the flame and it has burned brightly ever since. It's a good story. It fits the type. And it serves to found your faith. It also has an irrational core, it seems, that you can square against your reading of Gödel, and then apply to your professional life. You're happy to accept that the ineffability of faith may find irrational proofs in different parts of your life. And so you can comfortably say, "that's how faith works". But that answer is a non-answer. It's also a patronizing answer.

If god exists, then that god is immortal, transcendent and infinite, correct? Christians believe that god's only son, Jesus, gave his life for them, because they are sinners, but they also believe [as an article of faith] that their messiah rose from the dead to offer them everlasting hope, and that one day they too will rise, their love of him will be rewarded and they'll join him in heaven. This must be earned, however, because of the Fall from Grace, and the expulsion from Eden, shows human weakness. If god exists at all, and you believe god does exist, then you also accept these beliefs. You say you're not concerned about the afterlife, that you're working on this one. Ok, but in working on this one your goal surely is to please your god, to do as you were commanded to do, and if you perform well you will be rewarded. You believe you'll be rewarded, don't you? Otherwise, what's the point in believing in god at all? Otherwise, what is your god? Some finite judge keeping you on the straight-n-narrow? Your god is not going to consign you to oblivion if your love-pact remains intact. So you must have some thought for your soul, no? Your soul belongs to your god, and this soul will survive your earthly existence, right? You do believe this, don't you?

Finally, being close to god is also being close to god's promise and plan for you. Isn't this so? And it's not that I think the afterlife is important, it's that you do. Your living in the moment is only preparation for your infinite future with your god: If your life-span is 85 years at most, maybe more, and your death-span is infinity, then shouldn't you be tailoring your short span to your long and future one? Shouldn't you be mindful of your soul's afterlife? It's going to be in heaven a long long time, so shouldn't you be working this one as preparation for that one? You finish by saying, "I believe, therefore I shall be", but what shall you be? When shall you be what you shall be? This isn't some idle contingency clause you've just articulated, it's an etiological one where the consequence that 'you shall be' flows directly and logically from the cause that 'you believe'. The relationship between your faith and your afterlife is expressed very rationally here, almost has a Cartesian ring to it. But the fact is you do very much believe in an afterlife. The other fact is you have no rational basis for your belief, but maybe that's how faith works.

You can't answer the question, why do you believe in an afterlife: It remains a mystery that can only be arbitrated by ready-to-fit abstractions. You're ok with that. I'm not. You've found your answer, and so have I. Yours is wrong. Mine is right. And mine makes more sense than yours because I don't have to rely on abstractions like you do.

In this universe, we experience a three-dimensional existence moving through time. What is time? Time is a measurement of the entropic change in that space. Nothing more. Outside of that space - there is no time. Outside of that space there is no eternity because there is no time. There is no after-life because there is no 'after' which is an expression of time.

The other half of the word 'afterlife' is the good part - life. What is life? It's all around us on this planet, but not apparent anywhere else. Life seems to be the one thing that can fuck with this entropy thing. Sure, it has to play by the rules, but while the whole universe relentlessly decays around us, life goes on, oh-bla-di-oh-blah-da.

Does life exist anywhere else in this universe? I don't know. Does life exist beyond this universe? Without entropy, there is no life. Not life as we know it.

Christianity is a call to self-sacrifice. That is the example of Christ. Therein lies our enlightenment. But what is self? There is a Buddhist koan that goes something like this:

The student asks the Master, "How can I achieve true enlightenment?"

The Master replies, "to achieve true enlightenment, you must first give up your self."

The student, seeking confirmation, repeats, "so, when I give up myself, I will then achieve true enlightenment?"

The Master replies, "once the self is gone, who will be there to ask this question?"

Jesus was a carpenter, but I am the walrus ... goo goo g'joob.

If god exists at all, and you believe god does exist, then you also accept these [Christian] beliefs.

That doesn't follow. Even as a child, I never understood what the fuss was about Jesus of Nazareth. Nice guy, sometimes. Freakin nuts other times. He scared me. But prayer, simple meditative prayer, made all the sense in the world to me, and still does. Not, "God give me this, God give me that," but just, "Hi, how are you today?" That is still how I pray, and I wouldn't dream of apologizing for it. I'm absolutely sure that "God" doesn't exist, but that something besides me does. What else matters?

For whatever it's worth, I haven't the slightest interest in any church, doctrine or ritual. Am I a gnostic? No, because my sense of these things is firmly based on not-knowing, i.e, not-pretending. What I "know" is utterly unimportant. What I love is all-important, and it needs no name. That is what I trust. If I can't trust it, why have I even lived?

From a guy who knows everything.

Ducadmo is to be commended for taking on the unbeliever.

<link>

You can't get from Godel's proof to the following:

"We can see the limits of rationalism - there are truths that we can know, but never prove and there are truths that we can never know."

Godel showed that any particular axiomatic system can't prove certain truths WITHIN THAT SYSTEM. We could, if we wanted, switch to another axiomatic system to prove that truth. So basically you're over generalizing by dropping out the qualification on Godel's assertion. There are things we can know and never prove - WITHIN ONE PARTICULAR SYSTEM OF RULES. If you want to prove it, then switch to another system of rules. There's no rule (hahaha) against doing so. Since there are an infinite number of rule based systems there is no problem proving anything we'd like to prove.

an infinite number of rule based systems?

Yes.

But we're not working in the au naturale, we're in the abstract, where you think, you think some more, you think until it hurts and when it feels like the thinking is going to explode your brain you push to break through the wall.

Is it your contention that something that 'goes on forever' cannot be complete? If it is I might argue that something that 'goes on forever' is in fact, perfect. And if something is perfect, then certainly it has to be complete.

Or maybe squares.

those who say do not know and those who know do not say. I'm going back to my Alp now. Never should have come down in the first place.