So what you are saying is that you know you are taking advantage of some guy but you are ok with that. Or, that you charge for your company.

Yeah, that still falls in the trashy category for me.

Don't put your partner on a leash with a long list of expectations. That's like being in JAIL.

My husband understood that when I went out dancing with friends we weren't going out to pick up men or even flirt. In fact, before I was married I went out dancing every Saturday night and there were a group of us that would meet up at Prince's nightclub in Mpls and dance independently on the stage. It was some of the most fun I've ever had. There's a difference between going to a corner bar and getting drunk and going out to a club to dance with friends.

Wow. One of my favorite lines of argument... "You [female] cannot go out and spend time with your friends and have some drinks because someone might rape you. Remember, you must be terrified all the time, because all of society is not to be trusted, and living in fear is awesome."

Wow. One of my favorite lines of argument... "You [female] cannot go out and spend time with your friends and have some drinks because someone might rape you. Remember, you must be terrified all the time, because all of society is not to be trusted, and living in fear is awesome."

SusanM wrote the following post at 05/09/2008 7:56 PM:

So what you are saying is that you know you are taking advantage of some guy but you are ok with that. Or, that you charge for your company.

Yeah, that still falls in the trashy category for me.

*snort* so if some nice guy I am talking to, who already knows I am married and sexually off limits, offers to get the next round, I am taking advantage of him?

If I am at a pub having a rousing conversation with three strange people, and I say "barkeep, a pitcher and four glasses" are my three companions taking advantage of me?

Is it only trashy if it is in a nightclub? Or only trashy if the person buying the drinks is a man and the person drinking them is a woman? Is it trashier if it is a pink frou-frou drink with an umbrella, and less trashy if it is a pint of Guinness?

Freki

Yep. In my definition decent people do not ask that strangers spend their money on them. Imagine walking up to a person in the grocery store and saying "hey, I'd really like a beer, will you buy me one?" - how does that sit with you?

Friends? That is a different story. Typically money with friends is a back and forth case and it all eventually evens out. Of course if you are always mooching and never return the favor, that is trashy too.

All the rest you ask about is just pointless strawmen.

SusanM:

Its the buying drinks thing that I just keep circling back to. At least around here, when you accept a drink from a guy that is a clear signal that you are interested in taking things further.

I wouldn't say the signal is necessarily clear, but I do understand most men would see it as accepting an invitation at least to get to know her better. However, if some guy were to send a drink to you, would you tell the waiter to take it back? The guy's out the money, whether you take it or not, and they can't serve it to anyone else.

SusanM:

Yep. In my definition decent people do not ask that strangers spend their money on them. Imagine walking up to a person in the grocery store and saying "hey, I'd really like a beer, will you buy me one?" - how does that sit with you?

There's a difference between accepting what is offered - after making clear what is or isn't available - and asking for handouts.

How does this work in a dating scenario? Most first dates are not with someone you know well. Do you insist on going Dutch on every first date? If there's a second date, and he pays, do you demand a third date so you can pay, even if you can't stand each other?

I agree with you in principle, but random acts of kindness even out, too. A guy helped me (did most of the work) change a tire the other day. Should I prowl the streets looking for a tire to change, or stalk him till he needs my help? Odds are, I'll never be able to repay him. And he certainly wasn't looking to get laid!

Well as you said above, accepting a drink is a signal that you are open to getting to know them better. Same with the date. The person paying is trading their money for the opportunity to get to know you in a romantic way. Sure we don't typically think of it that cold heartedly but that is what it is. So at the end of the date you are basically 'even' because the person paying has gotten their money's worth. A second date is not required to pay back :)

And yes, I would send the drink back if I was not interested in getting to know the guy. The guy is out the cost of the drink but hopefully he's learned to go ask a lady first if he can buy her a drink before he spends the money. Either way, I cannot be forced to agree with a hidden social contract simply because somebody else has already agreed with it. Again, that is much more cold hearted than one would normally be but it is helpful to look at it that way when you are looking at the norms underlying social interactions.

I also think random acts of kindness is different. If somebody is a buck short in the grocery line and I offer to pay for it, there is no underlying social contract. I am giving something with the expectation that I can feel good about myself for doing it, there is no unwritten expectation of the recipient.

So, final point of a long winded post :P There are unwritten rules in the world. Freki acknowledges that back on the last page where she says that she knows some guys are buying her drinks in expectation of getting laid. She wants to say that she gets a waiver on that unwritten contract because the other party is being scummy. I say that two wrongs don't make a right - just because the other party is being scummy doesn't give you a right to accept the unwritten terms with no expectation of fulfilling them.

I think you are taking my example a bit far, Susan. I said some men might not take my clear statement of unavailability as truth, and in that case, yes, they are scummy, but I am not taking advantage of anyone. I make a point of telling them that the usual "unwritten social contract" does not apply in this case, and if they are unwilling or unable to accept that, well, they are grown men and can do whatever they like with their money.

Perhaps I just live in a different world than you do. If I am sitting in a pub (sshh..sometimes I go to the pub on the corner BY MYSELF) I often strike up a conversation with other people there. Otherwise, why not just stay home and drink? If I am enjoying the company of the person I am talking to, male or female, I think nothing of saying "what's your poison?" on my way up to the bar. I have never gotten the feeling that the other person is obliged to do anything other than say "thanks!"

Freki

Perhaps you do live in a different world. I did preface my very first post on this by saying 'around here'.

Alright, I'm gonna say it -

Yes, they are grown men. But you are a grown woman with a choice on your behavior as well. If you want to be a woman who accepts a drink from a guy trying to get laid, well that is your choice and that does say something about you.

SusanM:

In my definition decent people do not ask that strangers spend their money on them. Imagine walking up to a person in the grocery store and saying "hey, I'd really like a beer, will you buy me one?" - how does that sit with you?

I doubt that is what happens. I suspect the stranger offers to buy her a drink. If she makes it clear that she is not availablr for anything more than some talk and light flirting, I don't think that he's being taken advantage of. As you said before, buying someone a dirnk doesn't obligate them to sleep with you.

So PG, you are open to accepting a beer from a guy in the grocery store? :P

Odd story - I went to Six Flags last year with a married couple. For those of you not familiar with Six Flags there are acres and acres of parking lots. My friends start fighting as we are walking through the parking lot. They stop, I continue up a couple rows so that I'm not in the middle of their fight. Some guy drives up and stops in front of me, saying "Hey did you need somebody to buy you a ticket? I could use some company today." Holy crap! Talk about creepy.

I'm curious - for all you who are ok with a guy buying you a beer in the bar - what would you have thought if I (or say, your daughter) had said yes to the offer above?

"If you want to be a woman who accepts a drink from a guy trying to get laid, well that is your choice and that does say something about you. "

I can accept that. It says I don't buy in to this "unwritten rules of the road" buisness. I am not worried about my innocuous actions ruining my reputation or upsetting my husband.

Sometimes, I am an atheist who accepts a muffin and a tract from a nice Christian lady who is trying to convert me. Sometimes, I am an omnivore who eats a tofu-burger from some Vegan who thinks meat is murder.

None of the above make me any less a monogamous, omnivorous atheist.

Freki