SusanM:

Look, if you love your sister and you are buying her groceries - 2% cost the same as 1%. Why not buy her the stuff she actually likes?

Well in this case I had no idea that she prefered 1% as 2% had been what my parents had always purchased.

SusanM:

Your sister was wrong for complaining yet at the same time, you did mess up. Usually when you are doing a favor you try to make it one that the recipient benefits from, otherwise you are just wasting effort.

She still drank the milk. So she benefitted from it just fine. I think that if you're trying to do someone a favor with no ulterior motives or expectation of a return favor, that you can't mess up.

SusanM:

this Mom has been told that her behavior is hurting her child (yes, embarrassment in front of a teenagers friends is painful ... And her response is 'screw you, I'm doing whatever I want'.

If the mom was going out of her way to purposefully embarass her daughter, I would say that you have a point. But it sounds like the LW is simply embarassed by her mom's existance. Being told, "I am the way I am, and I'm not going to change." is perfectly acceptable, especially since there wasn't going to be an acceptable answer.

It reminds me of my feelings as a teen. My mom is a nurse, so she'd often wear her scrubs out and about, especially if she dropped me off at school after she worked. I always found that hugely embarassing. But then, if she was wearing jeans and a t-shirt, I was embarassed by the style of the jeans. I suspect that even if she'd have had me pick out "acceptable" outfits, I would've still been embarassed. Like most teens, I got over it. But I don't think there was a course of action that my mom could have taken to prevent embarassment.

I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that the LW's friends think that the LW's mom is cool enough, in a mom sort of way. They probably don't find her embarassing at all. I can see it now, "The LW's mom isn't so bad. If you want to see embarassing, take a look at my mom! The woman is hopelessly uncool!"

SusanM:

And that isn't modeling good conflict resolution (any wonder that the kid was bratty with her complaints??).

A good life lesson for any person is that you can't expect people to change simply because you want them to. If people learned this as teens, we wouldn't see any DP letters.

SusanM:

I think that is what is at the root of what is bugging me - this concept of indebtedness in return for an unasked for, unwanted favor.

But in the case of the LW, it isn't an unasked for favor. She specifically wants her mother to drive her so that she can spend time with her friends. She also wants to dictate exactly how her mom does this favor. That's just not how the way this sort of thing works. If I ask someone to give me a ride, but then I demand that they can't listen to country music, wear perfume or talk to me about politics, wouldn't everyone agree that my demands are rude and the person I was asking could simply not agree to do me a favor given those terms?

See I'm not so sure that I would define asking for a ride as asking for a favor. The parents put this child in circumstances where she is unable to have a full social life with her school peers unless they give her a ride. To me, I see an obligation on the part of the parents to either 1) change those circumstances or 2) provide their child with a ride whenever possible. The child shouldn't have to ask for that any more than she should have to ask for three square meals a day. It is a given.

Feel free to disagree :)

PhysicsGirl:

If the mom was going out of her way to purposefully embarass her daughter, I would say that you have a point.

Well we at least have several Moms on the board who freely admit to going out of their way to embarass their children. So I have a point at least with them :)

But I'll agree with you, if Mom simply is who she is then the daughter has to just get over it. Heck, my Mom drove a 30 year old bread truck that smoked to high heavens when I was a teenager. If you can't die from embarrassment over that, I can't imagine you can from anything!

...and insists on sticking to it, admittedly there's not a whole lot you can do (beyond continuing to be diplomatic and civil), but the person who says that is still being inconsiderate. The daughter said this about her mom's behavior:

"The problem is, my mom tries to act like a friend of ours. She talks too much and is repetitive and thinks she's really funny. She's also very loud."

Parents aren't the only ones who behave like this, and teens aren't the only ones who find such behavior irritating. The mistake the mom is making is not that she is acting like a mom (that would be just fine), she is trying to act like a buddy. I don't believe the mom actually is behaving "the way she is", she is trying instead to adopt a role in which she does not naturally fit in an attempt to be "cool". That's teenage-style behavior right there. The phrase "act your age" applies to grown-ups as much as it does children.

quietwife:

Are poor parents who live in mobile homes bad parents? Are parents with lawn gnomes bad parents? Are parents who show some affection to each other bad parents? Or, most breathtaking in your example now this young person is a victim of parents who might have put him in a good school, have a nice home and drive him around inspite of his lack of appreciation for what they must think is his own good.

Last time hubby was in the emergency room, there was a 2-3 year old there being treated. i do NOT think the child was especially grateful for Mommy and Daddy letting strangers poke, prod, and ultimately cast him. However, had they not, they'd have been terrible parents, worthy of losing custody.

Good parenting is not always in the eyes of the child. Generosity is not always in the eyes of the recipients. I agree with Susan that a gift should not be held as a future bargaining chip, but there is nothing wrong with pointing out to a kid sometimes when the parent goes out of his/her way to help the kid. That how kids learn to express appreciation! If the parents acted like silent martyrs every time they did something inconvenient, unpleasant, expensive, especially soemthing they did not choose (like driving the kid across town), the kids would grow up to feel entitled, which everyone seems to consider a result of bad parenting!

The definition of good parenting here just seems so narrow and immediate in it's considerations. It also frankly assumes a level of income and social class.

SusanM:

The parents put this child in circumstances where she is unable to have a full social life with her school peers unless they give her a ride.

Define full social life. She sees her peers at school five days a week. She has lunches, school activities and the like to hang out with them. What she desires is to attend a once a forthnight dinner/movie outting. I don't see that not attending this particular event means that she would not have a full social life.

SusanM:

To me, I see an obligation on the part of the parents to either 1) change those circumstances or 2) provide their child with a ride whenever possible.

Families aren't democracies. The parents picked where they live based on a number of things. I don't view picking a house so that the children have friends close by is an obligation like food, shelter and education are. By driving her to an activity which she wants to do, they are doing her a favor that she asked for.

of course the definition of good parenting assumes a level of certain level of income. taking out a mortgage requires a certain level of income, as one obviously is going to have a fairly large expense to meet for something like thirty years, and we morally judge people who irresponsibly take out loans without the clear ability to meet their obligations. likewise, raising a child, which is never ANYTHING but voluntary with both adoption and abortion freely available options, obviously is going to entail some significant expenses for at least eighteen years or so, and likewise we are right to condemn those who choose to take on this responsibility without the wherewithal to live up to it.

karen4984:

of course the definition of good parenting assumes a level of certain level of income. taking out a mortgage requires a certain level of income,

So renters can't be good parents? What about parents who take out mortgages, and then are laid off or injured so they can't work, so they can't pay their loans?

karen4984 wrote the following post at 05/13/2008 10:16 AM:

of course the definition of good parenting assumes a level of certain level of income.

Parenting is not about what you can buy for your kids. parenting is not about your kids designer clothes, parenting is not about buying everything the kid wants, it is not about how much money you spend on them.

I have to agree with karen. If a person can't afford to take care of themselves, i.e. no health insurance, renting a single room, no reliable steady employment, on food stamps, they should not be getting knocked up.

Choosing to have a baby when you don't have the resources to take care of him/her/it is irresponsible and a sign of bad parenting.

Waiting to have a child until you are fiscally stable is a sign of good parenting. I don't mean "until you own a house" or "until you can buy a Gucci diaper bag". I mean "until you can get Junior's fillings paid for" and "until you can afford to insure your car".

My mother could only afford thrift-store clothes, and that was fine with me. I still dress in Value Villiage chic. I never had cool electronic gear or the G.I. Joe I wanted, either, but that was ok. Even spending a summer living in a tent because we couldn't afford housing was allright. Going to bed hungry because Mom didn't get paid until the next day? Not so cool.

Freki

IncogNeato:

karen4984:

of course the definition of good parenting assumes a level of certain level of income. taking out a mortgage requires a certain level of income,

So renters can't be good parents? What about parents who take out mortgages, and then are laid off or injured so they can't work, so they can't pay their loans?

I think she was comparing the responsibility of a mortgage with the responsibility of a child, not saying you need to own a home to be a good parent.

I would agree that being a good parent requires a "certain level of income", but that doesn't mean that level is unreasonably high. We're not talking about designer clothes and mountain bikes and plasma tvs, we're talking about things like food and medical care.

glutton79:

I would agree that being a good parent requires a "certain level of income", but that doesn't mean that level is unreasonably high. We're not talking about designer clothes and mountain bikes and plasma tvs, we're talking about things like food and medical care.

Okay, but my point is still valid. There are plenty of parents who had suffient resources when the kids were born, but perhaps not later. Would we say most of the nation's parents during the Great Depression, for instance, were bad parents?

IncogNeato:

glutton79:

I would agree that being a good parent requires a "certain level of income", but that doesn't mean that level is unreasonably high. We're not talking about designer clothes and mountain bikes and plasma tvs, we're talking about things like food and medical care.

Okay, but my point is still valid. There are plenty of parents who had suffient resources when the kids were born, but perhaps not later. Would we say most of the nation's parents during the Great Depression, for instance, were bad parents?

the problem is, just because it's not your fault doesn't mean you get a free pass. if you get laid off, and your kids don't have food to eat, you're not (at that moment) doing a good job of providing for them. presumably most parents would then do whatever they could to rectify the situation.

I guess it depends on how you're using the term "good parent"- personally, I don't think anyone's good at parenting 100% of the time, and just because you have trouble providing for your kids for awhile doesn't mean you're forever a "bad parent". but feeding and sheltering your kids is a parent's responsibility, and if you're not doing it- for whatever reason- you're not holding up your end of the bargain.