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Re: So you are saying the accuser no longer has the right to accuse?
by JackD
The prosecutor has the right to accuse. The complaining witness has the right and obligation to testify to the facts that support the accusation.
I TRUST A JURY TO DO ITS JOB
by Textualist

The jury should be able to make common judgements based on common words without a judge expecting the members to get "inflamed".

However, I also trust a jury to be able to differentiate various aggravating and mitigating factors when determining punishment. For instance, what are your feelings on Roper v. Simmons, where an obviously guilty 17 year-old was saved from the jury's determination that death was the correct punishment for what by all accounts was a horrible crime (i.e premeditated murder by throwing a bound & gagged woman off a bridge)?

Whether it is "right" to execute a 17 year-old under any circumstances is definitely a tricky policy question (I would not favor it), but a policy question none the less.

Re: I TRUST A JURY TO DO ITS JOB
by JackD
You hit upon an important distinction. The emotional aspect of the victim's experience really has nothing to do with the determination of the defendant's guilt or innocence. It has a great deal to do with the punishment meted out after a guilty verdict.
Re: yeah because redundancy
by JackD
Saying, "he raped me" isn't helpful to the fact finding issue. Describing what he did may well lead to that conclusion but offering the conclusion as "fact" is not evidence; it's argument.
Re: Just the Facts, Mam
by Chispa

Did anyone even read the linked article about the jury deliberations?


Re: So you are saying the accuser no longer has the right to accuse?
by kgswiger
Are you,saying he doesn't have the right to be present when she testifies? Because she's not his accuser, after all.
Re: So you are saying the accuser no longer has the right to accuse?
by JackD
No, I'm not saying that. He has the absolute right to be present when she testifies, the right to "confront" witnesses is constitutionally guaranteed.
Re: yeah because redundancy
by Madd_Libby

fact finding issue

I admit, I'm no lawyer. My understanding of the criminal justice system in the United States, however, is fact-finding isn't what is happening in the courtroom. Evidence-weighing is. That is to say, evidence, as long as it isn't blatantly untrue, or proven to be so, is presented and its persuasiveness is what is being judged. Fact-finding is what congressional commitees do, not what criminal trials do.

Of course, I tend to be a bit more animated on this issue because I am a rape survivor. I never filed charges because I knew that the trauma of bringing my assualter to justice wasn't something I could survive mentally and emotionally at that point in my life. I also knew that he was on his way to prison for 10 years because of another assault.

If I had come forward, and been told that I couldn't use the word "rape" or "sexual assault" or any of the other "inflamatory words" I would feel very much as though I was being forced to suffer again in trying to find other ways to describe exactly what I went through.

Re: yeah because redundancy
by JackD
Well, it is fact finding albeit you are right that noone familiar with the justice system contends that it is accurate and objective in the sense that truth is clearly revealed. What is produced is the best we can do knowing that the best we can do is not perfect or close to it. Our system is sufficiently cynical about the ability of the "fact finders" to be right that it requires standards like "beyond reasonable doubt" in criminal cases in order to try to avoid serious error. That occurs, nevertheless, both in acquittals and convictions. There are indeed many wrongfully convicted people and many wrongfully acquitted people. So, what's so great about the system? It's like Churchill said about democracy: it's a terrible system except for all the others (paraphrased.)
Re: Just the Facts, Mam
by olso1969

I've read some of the feminist blogs and I can't help but feel like they're missing the point entirely. Ms. Bowen being able to desribe her experience as rape to a jury can't heal the wounds she's having to endure.

I've read the posts on this site and other blogs and I can't help but feel like people are concerned about our system of justice but fail to understad the facts of this case. Ms. Bowen can't desribe what happened to her in graphic detail nor in any other terms that would convey what happened because as she stated during her interviews with police and at trial, she doesn't remember.

Sadly, her role in her own trial has been reduced 2 critial facts; A) She woke up with the defendent on top of her penetrating her vagina at which time she asked him to stop and he did; and B) She drank enough to black out which she can in turn argue meant she was incapable of consenting to sex which she can in turn argue should have been obvious to the defendant which leads us to a discussion as to how drunk you have to be in order to no longer be able to consent to sex. That would be an interesting conversation indeed and from what I can tell, it's the only relevant factor left undecided in this case but I can't see how such a standard would be set much less measured in a court of law after the fact based on merely the testimony of the complaintant and defendant.

I think that despite my disagreement with the judge's decision, I have to say the most intelligent comment I've read that seems particularly appropriate for this case was from Sbrak in stating "...this man is on trial, and if his verdict could depend on the use of the word "rape," then I would say there's a problem with the evidence."

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