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Re: Jewish Intelligence
by igravious

Dear Bob,

Leave my grammar outta this, she ain't done nothing to nobody.

Let's get a couple of things straight here. I don't want to talk about the Protocols of Whatever. I don't care about your collective paranoid persecution complex. I don't believe in the Id, the Ego, or the Super-Ego - I believe them to be Freudian fictions with no neuro-biological basis in reality. They are myths. Just like the racial myth you came out with. And no - I will not contest the myth point by point because hey, what's the point? If it's any consolation, I think Woody Allen's the funniest guy alive.

We'll agree to disagree, okay? You seem like a nice guy. And it must take you forever to write those posts.

What your daughter's experienced shows us is that our common foe is religious bigotry. I'm serious - I think it's disgusting.

By the way - I notice that you didn't capitalize the word 'black' though you capitalize all other proper nouns you use, like Brit, Jew, Montana & God. And you know, I really hate that term, 'blacks'. You whites are all the same.

Anyhow, I knew I shouldn't have posted to this thread - it's a ridiculous topic. Our science is donkey's years from illuminating this branch of knowledge in its entirety. I mean you personally absolutely no ill will, I am here to promote inclusivity and to beg you to use those smart brain cells of yours to construct an alternative socio-historical narrative. The one you're 'propagating' is too banal, simplistic and tiresome.

And no, I'm techincally not British old chum, I'm from Oirland - that other diaspora. Think of me as Leopold Bloom if that helps :) Good day to ya boyo!

Re: Jewish Intelligence
by brerlou

In an earlier comment on Dr Watson’s remarks I asked the following question. What are the relevant logical inferences to be drawn from the data in the first place? The most important one I can think of is that the bell curve is skewed a little more to the right and a little higher for Jews than for the rest of the Caucasian world.

The blunt question no one has answered to my satisfaction is simply, So what? What on earth does that predict about the success or performance of Israel in the world community of nations, and what are the transmission lines by which these predictors operate? More importantly what does it suggest as to how the rest of the world should behave towards the nation of Israel?

It certainly doesn’t suggest, as some commentators naively imply, that all Jews are likely to be smarter than all other Caucasians or even than all other people of Sub-Saharan African descent. The late President Nkrumah of Sub-Saharan Ghana, for example tested out with an IQ of about 180! It simply suggests that a greater proportion of one group is likely to be more able in a narrow range of skills than can be found in another group.

The analogy is that a truckload of ore from site is likely to give a higher yield of gold than a truckload from the other site. That will always be true in chaos, which is never of perfect consistency. The flaw in Dr Watson’s naïve predictions is that if you only have 20 million cubic feet of the rich ore, it would be dumb to neglect the 2000 million cubic feet of the poorer grade ore. Similarly, 71.5 million very smart Israelis still suffer from severe limitations when competing with the productivity of the rest of the world, population 6 billion. So, maybe, for whatever reason, genetic, climatic, historical, or more recently, epigenetic, Sub-Saharan Africans are proportionately dumber than Super-Saharan Caucasians, (in a narrow range of skills.) But that lower grade ore will still, given enough of a breathing space to access adequate information be able to produce enormous quantities of what the world may need for future advancement of mankind, simply because there are more of them.

Let me end with a few questions, to what extent do these tests measure synthetic skill sets as opposed to analytic? Why does classical music seem so stilted when compared to jazz? What contribution does the ability to design have to make to the ability to produce? Does the basic g, measured by these tests really exhaust the range of human mental ability? How would we know?

Re: Dear Mr. Einstein
by brerlou

In an earlier comment on Dr Watson’s remarks I asked the following question. What are the relevant logical inferences to be drawn from the data in the first place? The most important one I can think of is that the bell curve is skewed a little more to the right and a little higher for Jews than for the rest of the Caucasian world. The blunt question no one has answered to my satisfaction is simply, So what? What on earth does that predict about the success or performance of Israel in the world community of nations, and what are the transmission lines by which these predictors operate? More importantly what does it suggest as to how the rest of the world should behave towards the nation of Israel?

It certainly doesn’t suggest, as some commentators naively imply, that all Jews are likely to be smarter than all other Caucasians or even than all other people of Sub-Saharan African descent. The late President Nkrumah of Sub-Saharan Ghana, for example tested out with an IQ of about 180! It simply suggests that a greater proportion of one group is likely to be more able in a narrow range of skills than can be found in another group.

The analogy is that a truckload of ore from site is likely to give a higher yield of gold than a truckload from the other site. That will always be true in chaos, which is never of perfect consistency. The flaw in Dr Watson’s naïve predictions is that if you only have 20 million cubic feet of the rich ore, it would be dumb to neglect the 2000 million cubic feet of the poorer grade ore. Similarly, 71.5 million very smart Israelis still suffer from severe limitations when competing with the productivity of the rest of the world, population 6 billion. So, maybe, for whatever reason, genetic, climatic, historical, or more recently, epigenetic, Sub-Saharan Africans are proportionately dumber than Super-Saharan Caucasians, (in a narrow range of skills.) But that lower grade ore will still, given enough of a breathing space to access adequate information be able to produce enormous quantities of what the world may need for future advancement of mankind, simply because there are more of them.

Let me end with a few questions, to what extent do these tests measure synthetic skill sets as opposed to analytic? Why does classical music seem so stilted when compared to jazz? What contribution does the ability to design have to make to the ability to produce? Does the basic g, measured by these tests really exhaust the range of human mental ability? How would we know?

Having been involved in the original Slate endeavor I stopped corresponding after Microsoft bought out the forum and transformed it into an online magazine, not only because it had lost that personal touch, but because most of the new dialogue seemed almost sophomoric and simplistic. It’s not that I have any delusions concerning my own abilities but I prefer to be forced to absorb new ideas rather than to be forced to explain why a certain statement is nonsense and doesn’t rise to the level of the rest of the conversation, but this topic is too important to ignore.

Firstly, the whole discussion of racial superiority is meaningless on an individual basis. The underlying tone of most of these discussions on race seems to imply that such conclusions can be drawn. One lunkhead even suggested that Watson’s remarks about Africa must be right because the blacks who work under him on his job don’t seem to understand his instructions. This egregious non-sequitur ignored such things as pay scales, educational attainment, tuning out of unpleasant attitudes in the boss, or the low expectations of the person doing the hiring, especially if he was thinking in terms of quotas.

Actually, even Watson seems to ignore the fact that natural selection plays out over such a long period of time that migration patterns would tend to wipe out geographical identifiers except in cases of such extreme isolation as found in the Galapagos Islands or such. For example in my own case, two of my 16 great-great-grandparents were Caucasian, one a Scottish crewman who jumped ship in the Caribbean, the other probably descended from exiled Irish, so if I fell into Watson’s test bed how would this infusion of white blood affect his data? It would probably be ignored.

In terms of American blacks, it is nothing short of dishonesty for a researcher to ignore the fact that true freedom, especially in education, was only granted to blacks in the lifetimes of most Americans still alive today, but like everything else most people can’t distinguish between winning an argument for their side, and winning an argument for the Truth.

Furthermore, since the definition of black American means anyone with any visible signs of blackness, most American blacks are even more intermingled with Caucasian stock than am I. Was any attempt made to correct for that? The truest test of racially divergent scores would be to test “light-skinned ethnics” against dark-skinned blacks from the same socio-economic background. That would eliminate some of the “noise.”

brerlou
by MorganLee
The late President Nkrumah of Sub-Saharan Ghana, for example tested out with an IQ of about 180!

Would you mind sharing your source of this information? Also, who administered the test and what test was used? I am very familiar with IQ tests, but cannot name any reputable test that can measure beyond 4 sigma and even then, the upper ranges are suspect.


Let me end with a few questions, to what extent do these tests measure synthetic skill sets as opposed to analytic?

Human cognitive abilities are ALL correlated. This fact causes a single g to always emerge from a factor analysis of tests of intelligence. The job of an IQ test is to probe various abilities enough to get a good reading of g. That's it.


Does the basic g, measured by these tests really exhaust the range of human mental ability? How would we know?

We know that the only thing that matters in any IQ test is its ability to measure g. This can be shown by factoring out all of the g loading and then examining the residuals for predictive validity. There is virtually none.


In terms of American blacks, it is nothing short of dishonesty for a researcher to ignore the fact that true freedom, especially in education, was only granted to blacks in the lifetimes of most Americans still alive today, but like everything else most people can’t distinguish between winning an argument for their side, and winning an argument for the Truth.

Why do you think that US Blacks are the point here? Blacks in countries where the governments are Black and the population is almost entirely Black have lower IQ scores than Blacks in the US. Blacks in Europe have the same mean IQ as US Blacks and that is predicted by the 25% European admixture found in both groups. If freedom requires so long to operate, how is it that Chinese have a higher mean IQ than Americans? What aspect of freedom causes Ashkenazi Jews to have a huge advantage (at the mean) over non-Jew Europeans? Let me suggest that you are trying to fabricate cause and effect without doing any basic research or thinking about the implications of your comments.



Re: Jewish Intelligence
by Bob Brass

Mr. fsilber:

I hadn't really spent a lot of time on your comment, but now, having re-read it, believe you missed the entire point I was trying to make. You don't breed intelligence into a race, you breed, by virtue of the forces I mentioned in the initial and responsive posts, stupidity/lack of intelligence OUT of it! And that's precisely what Mr. Saletan was saying as well --- I believe, not wanting to put words into his posts, as it were.

Re: Jewish Intelligence
by Blood

Bob, Honey, don't you see the Hand of God in all this? How indeed DID Abraham's kids manage to survive with all this persecution? Intelligence cannot account for all the good luck(?) the Jews have seemed to acquired with this. Time and again, throughout the old testament, God said He would scatter the Jews;persecution enabled this. Time and again He said He would bless A's kids; intelligence enabled this. How could such an ancient civilization thrive without a homeland, keep its identity, and land in the top echelons of societies without the hand of a favoring God? And I write this as a Christian.

I just hope that the Jews look at the extremely small chance of their being where they are and attribute it to Him, worshipfully, and not to the fruit of His hand, worshipfully.

Re: Jewish Intelligence
by Blood
I'm pretty sure the bible (OT) forbade usury by the Jews to other Jews. It was OK to charge usury to non-Jews.
Re: Jewish Intelligence
by Blood

Lovely sentiments. Is it any wonder why evangelical Christians identify more with the Jews than Muslims?

Love wins, Saletan. Think about it.

Re: Jewish Intelligence
by Blood
I am sorry to hear that your daughter has heard things like that. As a Christian with Jewish blood, I can tell you that I have NEVER heard of anyone in my circles saying such a thing. Perhaps the people who say such are white supremacists or something. REAL Christians are beginning to truly embrace our spiritual Jewish heritage and honor our family tree.
Re: Jewish Intelligence
by Blood

"We'll agree to disagree, okay? You seem like a nice guy. And it must take you forever to write those posts."

I suspect Bob whipped them out in very little time. As someone who claims superior intellect, I would think you would understand that.

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