Minnmule:

Well spoke doodahman. Or as JV and reJoinder would have it, my Pope can take your Hitchens. Or vice versa. Or who cares? JV - another question for you - Is it possible that we haven't seen Armageddon or the Second Coming yet, because in the whole history of Christianity, including ALL of the catholics or the protestants, God just hasn't seen the 144,000 pure ( or whatever Revelations says that # is) people yet? Which would mean, if were hanging at 143,999, have you got the right stuff to roll the dial?

Don't confuse protestant fundamentalist or evangelical teachings with Roman Catholic dogma, doctrine and catechism teachings, and I will not confuse you with a naive or lazy disingenuous unbeliever.

There is no rapture, no cares when armageddon will occur. We only care about living the life of a Christian, not just believing. We are not the crowd who are "assured" of their salvation. We fear long sentences in purgatory. We adhere to the words of St Paul (i.e. "I work out my salvation in fear and trembling.) We do not say you are going to hell because you have not embraced the Christian faith, but we know its value and importance... hence, ... we are very much concerned for every soul, even our enemy.

In other words... what's your problem?

Not really, but I'm too grossed out by your Subject line to say more. I wish people would stop using Hitchens' name and the word 'sex' in the same line. It gives me the heebie-jeebies...

My problem? 1st one is that the confusion between you, the evangelicals, and the protestants speaks to one of the main points the aetheists love to grab hold of. How can so many different interprations of the teachings of Jesus exist? AND what proof exists that one is more right than the other? No different in some respects as Sunni and Shiite factions of the prophet Mohammad? The 2nd problem is when people allow thier religion, something that is a heart and mind singularity per individual to believe, to amass itself as in political law. (IE legislating morality) The 3rd problem is accountability. You mentioned Paul - he directly contradicted Jesus' teachings on The Mount when he said, "Do what ever your leaders tell you, for they will answer to God" I'm not so much lazy as I am tired. Tired of the excuse that the Devil made me do it.

My problem? 1st one is that the confusion between you, the evangelicals, and the protestants speaks to one of the main points the aetheists love to grab hold of. How can so many different interpretations of the teachings of Jesus exist?

Have you read any history? The interpretations of “God” number in the tens of thousands, but how does that refute the existence of God or the fact one may still be the most proper?

AND what proof exists that one is more right than the other?

Well like Benedict XVI told a secular journalist who asked for similar proof; “there are thousands of books and testimonies from saints and scholars which address that question, but now you expect me to convince you in a single moment?” My answer: It is a stepping stone process. First we must convince the doubter of the existence of God. Once we are there then we move on to which God. If we can ever get to that point, i.e. establishing the fact that the Judeo-Christian God is the one and only true God, then we can move forward into denominational teaching. The Roman Catholic Church has the strongest argument I am certain of it.

Question for you: What would be “proof” to you? For 95% of the unbelievers, they demand empirical evidence of the supernatural. They are more in demand of miracles than are the faithful who take great interest in them. If you cannot examine the facts of Fatima and come away convinced that God intervened in the affairs of man, then that tells me you are not open-minded, but agenda driven to do your level best to explain away any great manifestation, no matter how implausible your defense may be. Zeitoun, Egypt 1968 would be another I would call irrefutable evidence of divine intervention.

No different in some respects as Sunni and Shiite factions of the prophet Mohammad?

No, no different if you use the barbaric world and rules of war from the 16th century to brand Protestant and Catholic disagreements as tantamount to 21st century Sunnis and Shiites blowing up market squares and shouting “God is great!” Christians have a more tolerant and compassionate view of their neighbor than do your prophets of Mohammad. The difference is that there was some level of warring and death between Christian sects, but mostly that ended 400 years ago and it was never as diabolic as what we see in other religions. Islam currently has a fringe element of intolerant, violent extremists that is almost as large as its peaceful core. Their acts of evil and hatred know no equal. So when someone points out Northern Ireland as a reason Christianity is no better than Islam, I just roll my eyes.

The 2nd problem is when people allow thier religion, something that is a heart and mind singularity per individual to believe, to amass itself as in political law. (IE legislating morality)

How stupid is that? Using your buzz words to blanket against a cause. You realize that you can legally kill your 8 month old fetus in the womb don’t you? Forgive the Catholic if he is using his voice and his vote to try to stop that act. Forgive the Catholic if he uses his voice and his vote to allow parents the right to know if their 14 year old daughter is about to have an abortion. Forgive the Catholic if he uses his voice and his vote to legislate the public air waves from the most vile and licentious messages targeted squarely on teens and pre-teens. You realize public air waves are a privilege not a right, do you not? Forgive me for looking around at noticing a morally debauched nation that is so drunk with lust and narcissism and materialism that they are acting essentially as a nation filled with 95% atheists and 5% Christians. And 99% fools who are so full of themselves that they cannot begin to consider their eternal futures. Too lazy, too proud, too in love with themselves, too hedonistic, take your pick for the reason.

The 3rd problem is accountability. You mentioned Paul - he directly contradicted Jesus' teachings on The Mount when he said, "Do what ever your leaders tell you, for they will answer to God"

Sorry is the man who uses Scripture in a very selective way to promote his cause. It is really all too sophomoric. Jesus and Scripture contradict themselves all the time, but it is a wise or prudent man who can understand the intended meaning. Jesus says in two separate passages “If they are not with us, they are against us” and in another “If they are not against us, they are with us.” I can figure out how or where that would apply and where it would not, same goes for your paradoxes or contradictions.

I'm not so much lazy as I am tired. Tired of the excuse that the Devil made me do it.

Finally we agree. No one is getting a free pass to heaven for that excuse. More apropos might be “I made the devil make me do it.” Those who choose to be lazy or indifferent or naïve (and with all that comes greater sin) place themselves in the devil’s workshop. Much easier to entice the fool than the wise man.

JV-12:

My problem? 1st one is that the confusion between you, the evangelicals, and the protestants speaks to one of the main points the aetheists love to grab hold of. How can so many different interpretations of the teachings of Jesus exist?

Have you read any history? The interpretations of “God” number in the tens of thousands, but how does that refute the existence of God or the fact one may still be the most proper?

AND what proof exists that one is more right than the other?

Well like Benedict XVI told a secular journalist who asked for similar proof; “there are thousands of books and testimonies from saints and scholars which address that question, but now you expect me to convince you in a single moment?” My answer: It is a stepping stone process. First we must convince the doubter of the existence of God. Once we are there then we move on to which God. If we can ever get to that point, i.e. establishing the fact that the Judeo-Christian God is the one and only true God, then we can move forward into denominational teaching. The Roman Catholic Church has the strongest argument I am certain of it.

Question for you: What would be “proof” to you? For 95% of the unbelievers, they demand empirical evidence of the supernatural. They are more in demand of miracles than are the faithful who take great interest in them. If you cannot examine the facts of Fatima and come away convinced that God intervened in the affairs of man, then that tells me you are not open-minded, but agenda driven to do your level best to explain away any great manifestation, no matter how implausible your defense may be. Zeitoun, Egypt 1968 would be another I would call irrefutable evidence of divine intervention.

No different in some respects as Sunni and Shiite factions of the prophet Mohammad?

No, no different if you use the barbaric world and rules of war from the 16th century to brand Protestant and Catholic disagreements as tantamount to 21st century Sunnis and Shiites blowing up market squares and shouting “God is great!” Christians have a more tolerant and compassionate view of their neighbor than do your prophets of Mohammad. The difference is that there was some level of warring and death between Christian sects, but mostly that ended 400 years ago and it was never as diabolic as what we see in other religions. Islam currently has a fringe element of intolerant, violent extremists that is almost as large as its peaceful core. Their acts of evil and hatred know no equal. So when someone points out Northern Ireland as a reason Christianity is no better than Islam, I just roll my eyes.

The 2nd problem is when people allow thier religion, something that is a heart and mind singularity per individual to believe, to amass itself as in political law. (IE legislating morality)

How stupid is that? Using your buzz words to blanket against a cause. You realize that you can legally kill your 8 month old fetus in the womb don’t you? Forgive the Catholic if he is using his voice and his vote to try to stop that act. Forgive the Catholic if he uses his voice and his vote to allow parents the right to know if their 14 year old daughter is about to have an abortion. Forgive the Catholic if he uses his voice and his vote to legislate the public air waves from the most vile and licentious messages targeted squarely on teens and pre-teens. You realize public air waves are a privilege not a right, do you not? Forgive me for looking around at noticing a morally debauched nation that is so drunk with lust and narcissism and materialism that they are acting essentially as a nation filled with 95% atheists and 5% Christians. And 99% fools who are so full of themselves that they cannot begin to consider their eternal futures. Too lazy, too proud, too in love with themselves, too hedonistic, take your pick for the reason.

The 3rd problem is accountability. You mentioned Paul - he directly contradicted Jesus' teachings on The Mount when he said, "Do what ever your leaders tell you, for they will answer to God"

Sorry is the man who uses Scripture in a very selective way to promote his cause. It is really all too sophomoric. Jesus and Scripture contradict themselves all the time, but it is a wise or prudent man who can understand the intended meaning. Jesus says in two separate passages “If they are not with us, they are against us” and in another “If they are not against us, they are with us.” I can figure out how or where that would apply and where it would not, same goes for your paradoxes or contradictions.

I'm not so much lazy as I am tired. Tired of the excuse that the Devil made me do it.

Finally we agree. No one is getting a free pass to heaven for that excuse. More apropos might be “I made the devil make me do it.” Those who choose to be lazy or indifferent or naïve (and with all that comes greater sin) place themselves in the devil’s workshop. Much easier to entice the fool than the wise man.

Folks, a life in faith does not mean having any of these answers, really. It means searching with a sincere heart to find a way of life that is consistent with what we understand to be Divine Will. I do that not because I feel a need to kowtow before irrestible power, but because I believe with whole heart that the Divine will is all about things like mercy, compassion, equality, justice and love. Beyond that, everything else is interesting for debating purposes and as an exercise in exploration of the Divine, but as John Lennon says, "Nothing to get hung about." Strive to know, love and follow any path of mercy, compassion, equality, justice and love and I consider you to be a fellow traveler, equal to me or even farther along that path in understanding, regardless of what dogma, religion or spiritualism you follow. You can believe in one God, no God or many Gods-- I don't care. "All I want to know is, 'Are you kind'?"

I hope you are kind Doodahman because it will make a difference, IMO, and I hope Lennon was too for his sake.

Note: sorry if I high jacked your thread but I pretty much have given up on visiting FaithBased because I repeat myself ad nauseum to the same select group, so the joke’s on me. At least in other locales it’s a different audience.

Let’s be honest though, if everyone insists that I am, at best, guessing about God and death, than so must be you? IOW, you, too, could be making a fatal mistake, so I still need to take caution.

Here is the good news, though. The most important chapters in the entire Bible (especially as far as any unbeliever is concerned) are Matthew 5: 3-12 (the beatitudes) and Matthew 25: 31-46 (the last judgment). Both echo your point of view. Both speak of salvation for mankind and neither speaks of faith or prayer or accepting Jesus as your Savior (albeit the rest of Scripture covers that thoroughly). What it speaks of almost exclusively is charity (a close cousin to kindness). Yes, that is the greatest virtue undoubtedly.

So maybe that is your mantra for pleasing “the unknown” but do consider that it appears you like to spend your leisure parodying life and exposing hypocrites. I prefer to dwell on the words of the likes of Aquinas, and Augustine. I think there are important messages (fascinating even) within those types for us all.

Interesting, as you keep trying to condemn and judge me as an aetheist, heathen, Son of Sam, or whatever, that you still just don't see that I am none of those things. What I am, is that I am not either a catholic or a protestant, or a muslim, or a jew, or a member of the Elks club or the Chamber of Commerce. I wear no gangs colors. Not the Bloods or the Cryps, nor the Pope's or the NFL. My beliefs in God are between me and Him. Funny you should mention Matthew. What does Matthew 6 say - Especially that all too important, but almost all but forgotten sentences where Jesus, not only tells us the words of the "the prayer", but distinctly tells us HOW to do it, and it is not in the mass setting of any church. You seem, in all of your arguments, to forget that Jesus Christ didn't like the Temple, or the Romans. You talk of God's judgement in one fashion only - that His judgement is dealt only in the realm of eternity. You keep ignoring me every time I tell you - God will judge you. He will judge me. He won't judge you because of me, nor me because of you. You just can't seem to get past your dogma, rhetoric, or platitudes to allow that very simplistic intrepretation to even exist. I personally think that, if as you would say, that God create's that life in the womb from day one of conception, then God's will for that life, is that it only last 2-3 months. I DON'T KNOW!!!!! Because I don't know the will of God. And I don't know ANYBODY, dead or alive that does. You say it is all true, with your evidence being "the miracles". You are still doing what I said all along, but you somehow can't allow me the belief. You are making the point I've made all along that religion IS a question answered by faith. I said this very first time I got on this thread. Your FAITH that the miracles are real is your faith. More power to you. However, here is a huge contradiction for me -- You talk of charity and kindness. Great virtues, indeed. The problem I have with that is that, all of my life, I have seen the political marriage of the Republican party, and the "Religious Right". Two organizations that keep a tight rein on both of the terms charity and kindness. It is only by thier defintion that the words are allowed to exist, relative to the world of politics, and the whole idea of self-representative taxing and spending. I'm sorry, but I see a large hypocrisy in voting against programs designed to alleviate human suffering such as healthcare, and housing, and food, and then voting for war spending. But that's just me I guess. I've never been right before, no need to be right, now. Amen.

Interesting, as you keep trying to condemn and judge me as an aetheist, heathen, Son of Sam, or whatever, that you still just don't see that I am none of those things. What I am, is that I am not either a catholic or a protestant, or a muslim, or a jew, or a member of the Elks club or the Chamber of Commerce. I wear no gangs colors. Not the Bloods or the Cryps, nor the Pope's or the NFL. My beliefs in God are between me and Him.

Well if you are so confident and assured that you are doing the right thing for God, then you should have nothing to worry about. (although I am not sure what the source of that confidence is?) But for you to intimate that my preaching to strangers on the internet or someone else preaching to whoever might be listening in a public forum is some type of violation or imposition, well, that’s just ridiculous. The secular world engages in that maybe 200 million times a day. Secondly, for you to suggest witnessing is something God might frown upon is even more ridiculous, even dangerous on your part.

Funny you should mention Matthew. What does Matthew 6 say - Especially that all too important, but almost all but forgotten sentences where Jesus, not only tells us the words of the "the prayer", but distinctly tells us HOW to do it, and it is not in the mass setting of any church. You seem, in all of your arguments, to forget that Jesus Christ didn't like the Temple, or the Romans.

That is as far as I have gone with your post. In my opinion, you really do not know what you are talking about (such as the above). If you would like for me to continue a discussion with you then you will have to make a top post out of it because I refuse to alert other posters to this thread that there is a new message appearing on their MBTU's.

I have nothing against Minnesota mules, me being from Minnesota myself.

The 144,000 pure souls that god is referring to are the 72,000 married gay couples.

Since gays still can't get married, we have time.....