"When opportunity knocks, the first thing I think is, 'Which one of you kids broke the damn doorbell again.'"

Facebook you should look for the page S**t My Dad Says <link>

where my old man was when he said he was going on business trips!

“Take care of yourself” was no longer a motto for the uber-selfish. It was actually a smart and sustainable way to live in the world. “Be nice” wasn’t about manipulating someone else into being nice, I could choose to be nice because I liked myself when I was nice.

Doing unto others slowly emerged as something that I could choose to do because it was a basic guideline for decent behavior.

One of the problems I have with therapists is that they tend to see everything in terms of "taking care of yourself." This might be necessary for the patient at first, but I think we need to go beyond that.

I think we should follow the Golden Rule not only because we choose to do it, but because it's the right thing to do, whether we choose (feel like doing) it or not. Sometimes I feel like "choosing" the easy way out, but then I catch myself and try to do the "right" thing.

There are various ways of "self-affirmation." Not all of them are right or good. In other words, I think self-affirmation needs to have a moral component (and no, I'm not a religious person).

My view of you has adapted

I have felt for years that your view of me on PF was slightly off, but I never bothered to say anything until today. So I'm glad you've finally changed that view.

As a spin off of art and soul's theme on this thread, I'll add that my "being nice" on PF / Slate is a strategy, not a placation.

People who do nice things expecting something in return, are really trying to control the other person. My mom got to the point where she wouldn't let my stepfather do anything for her because it always ended with him using that "favor" against her when he wanted to make her do something she didn't want to do. I'm more likely to take advantage of someone who does things like that, but my antennae do go up whenever someone offers to do me a favor.

What I've turned on its head: I'm very careful to examine my own urge to tell others what to do, and much to my surprise, it was never my job in the first place.

Telling others what to do... that was another mantra of my parents' ... it was their "job" dontcha know?

So, when I became a parent I just assumed it was now my job. I was rip-roaring through life telling every damn person I ran into what to do. Imagine my surprise when it came to my awareness that... um .. it's not my job .. even with my kids.

Good stuff.

an elderly Virginian I met on a stream said, "Slow down, son. You'll catch more fish." I think it was the only advice I ever got that actually worked.

A lot of parents make that mistake. Then they hire me to teach them how to give kids choices and options so they can learn to make decisions on their own and develop self discipline instead of perfecting their obedience.

It's a good thing you're doing.

I only discovered this by being forced to deal with alcoholism, and hitting brick wall after brick wall in dealing with my family members. It wasn't really therapy that gave me the most insight, it was the way I got to see other people doing things differently from how I had seen it done growing up.

And recognizing that I, too, could do something differently. But first I had to know that it wasn't working. Funny how long that can take sometimes.

I remember having a conversation with Joe about letting the girls do some various things in 8th, 9th and 10th grade. Part of the reason we "risked" it was because driving was coming up and we knew we couldn't wait til they had a Drivers License before learning whether or not they knew how to make decisions.

A + S and Iso,

As a middle ground between having complete control over kids and allowing them to do risky things, how about a middle ground where you give kids a couple of choices, one of which might be a "safe" risk?

You only give your children options that are safe, you don't just thrust them onto the tight rope in a blindfold. For example, you can put on your jammies first or you can brush your teeth. Not, get ready for bed or jump out the window.

So do you want those remaining posts of mine off Soccerfreak's thread or not? Two deleted, two to go. If I see you've taken yours off, I can proceed. Not that I don't like much of what I wrote and all of how I wrote it, of course, but I'll cooperate with your sense of PFray utility.

I don't know that it's a matter of learning whether they know how to make decisions, it's about teaching them the skill of problem solving/decision making. That is, how to brainstorm solutions,weigh options, think through consequences of possible choices, and then pick one. There's a great program called Tools of the Mind that does this kind of training in critical thinking for schools. It's hugely successful.

I don't know if he will agree, but I think you've done a good job over there and would like to see it happen here as well.

Thanks, A + S, but a PF is a very small group compared to here or BOTF, and so each of us cares more about how others think about us. And being poetry nutz, we're better at shunning obnoxious posters.

I have suggested to JTM that he treat Procrastination much as he does Poems Fray

He will help, but first you have to alert him to the problems. I doubt he wants to spend too much time monitoring the board. I don't think he spends any time on PF unless one of us e-mails him.

You might consider taking on that responsibility on this board.

(no need to respond to this post)