Ian:

Well, you're not a single guy anymore so I guess it's a little late, but I've found a couple things here that are great for meeting women that aren't doing the "learn by grilling" thing... Washington Square Park on Sundays has a book-club-with-beer thing happening. It's all lit-nerdy and fueled by alcohol at the same time, and it's great in the summer. Another one is drop-in dance classes. Swing and tango are fun and I've met a lot of great girls there - actually, great people in general. I guess I just always avoided the whole "date"-date thing where you meet up someplace that serves overpriced food and try and get chosen for a second interview. I hate that job-interview approach to dating. ( and I avoid the Marina and North Beach like an ebola quarantine, so that helps too )

not:

All I can do is stick my hands in my pockets and look at my shoes. Yeah, my stuff was a little defensive. It started out that way with the OP, I was ranting about how sick I am of being looked at like some kind of domineering perv because of who I happen to be attracted to. So there you go, /rant off and all that

I don't think all men who like Asian women are perverts. I know lots of beautiful, smart, funny Asian women. If I were a guy or gay, I'd be attracted to some myself.

But I'm a (hopefully) attractive, smart, funny white girl. I've lived in Japan for around three years, and studied Japanese for more. I'm sick to death of white guys constantly having to compare the two! If you have to defend you choice of girlfriend, if you find every chance available to go on about how much you like Asian chicks, and how much better they are than white chicks - well, I'll get defensive too. I honestly don't care about men's preferences. Everybody has their own attractions. But what I find annoying in the I'm-white-guy-who-likes-Asian-­chicks crowd is the constant talking about it. I've read these messages and comments about how nobody would blink an eye at a guy who says "I love blonde women." They wouldn't, because the guy wouldn't then go off for 20 minutes about how much blonde women are better than every other type of woman out there.

That's all I'm saying.

montereyjill, white guys are on the defensive with their unconventional dating preferences because they are considered perverts if they have a preference for anything but the mainstream. I suppose that is the definition of pervert. I consider this to be a partially leftover of the heyday of racism and totally a misunderstanding of the engrained, unconditioned preferences for a mate. Until recently, homosexuals were thought to have a choice in the sex of their mates.

As for blond women, the statement should be "I love women with fake blond hair." Men who prefer blond women never have to justify their preferences because they have not chosen out of the ordinary. Blondes are still Caucasian, and no American man needs to justify his choice of a Caucasian woman of any hair color. The attacks are against those that date outside of their race, and the funny thing is that most of that pressure comes from women. This is to be expected. Men say the same about a white woman that brings a non-white woman to the party.

Ah yes, blame women for men being on the defensive :)

What I'm trying to say is, men or women don't have to explain or defend their choices at all. Period. I'm married to a Japanese man. Very few people have questioned me on marrying outside my race. When someone has asked me why I'm with him, I don't go into how much better looking I think Asian guys are than white guys, how Japanese men have better personalities, etc. It's insulting to, well, anyone. I say "I married ____ because he's nice, smart, funny, good-looking, etc. Not nicer, smarter, funnier, better-looking...

See what I mean? Also, the more defensive and the more you try to justify your preference, the more like sour grapes it sounds. And that's why a lot of people assume that any guy with an Asian girl and refuses to look at white girls probably "can't get one." I don't believe that, but that's why others get that impression.

That's all!

montereyjill:

Ah yes, blame women for men being on the defensive :)

What I'm trying to say is, men or women don't have to explain or defend their choices at all. Period. I'm married to a Japanese man. Very few people have questioned me on marrying outside my race. When someone has asked me why I'm with him, I don't go into how much better looking I think Asian guys are than white guys, how Japanese men have better personalities, etc. It's insulting to, well, anyone. I say "I married ____ because he's nice, smart, funny, good-looking, etc. Not nicer, smarter, funnier, better-looking...

See what I mean? Also, the more defensive and the more you try to justify your preference, the more like sour grapes it sounds. And that's why a lot of people assume that any guy with an Asian girl and refuses to look at white girls probably "can't get one." I don't believe that, but that's why others get that impression.

That's all!

But Jill, you -are- defensive. It's why I asked you in my first reply to you, exactly where have I put down any other women? You came at me with all of this business about saying all the ways in which Asian women are better than you, and there wasn't word one to that effect.

And if you're wondering why this is even a topic of conversation, it's because there's no small number of people out there who will judge an anglo guy dating an asian girl. That's a real stereotype, it's ever-present, and it gets pretty annoying. That's not saying white women are inferior, that's not even in the same room.

d.travers wrote :"I hate that job-interview approach to dating. ( and I avoid the Marina and North Beach like an ebola quarantine, so that helps too )
"

Yeah, it took a few years to get away from that scene. "Do you rent or own?" on a first date. "You're ten minutes late" after driving two hours (usually one hour) one rainy night during peak rush hour traffic from the South Bay because they would not accept a dinner date at any time other than 7pm. I was too naive to know that I should walk away. The lengths a young man will go to gain the attention of a woman ...

There are well-organized social events by my long time friends that moved from the South Bay to SF. To any young men out there, steer clear of these events if you're interested in meeting women. You meet great guy friends, eat a lot of wine and cheese and always end up with purple-toothed (wine)older women hounding you for a ride home. These societies are the distillation vats for the perennially single.

d.travers wrote : "Why am I attracted to Asian girls? I love dark hair, a heart-shaped face, and I love Asian women's voices. "

Have to agree with you on those features, epecially the voice. Add to that the slender wrists and tapered elegant fingers. So, here's a question for you: have you thought about the threshold of attraction? As in, if you like Asian girls, is there a line that must be crossed for them to be Asian enough? If you find one of those Japanese imports with very wide eyes and dyed-brown hair, is she Asian enough? For Asian American women, if they act like your buddy (as do many women from the Generation-Y's "I never take the least bit of s**t from any guy, swear like a hooker, drink like a fish" group), does that reduce her exoticness? If she looks very , say, Korean with that distinctively beautiful facial bone structure but makes every behavior modification to distance herself from that ethnic group - is that a turn off?

When is an Asian woman inadequately Asian? Also, do you have a similar reaction to Asian-Indian women? (BTW, A.I. women are possibly the most talented conversationalists on the planet.)

Ian Blokesworth:

d.travers wrote : "Why am I attracted to Asian girls? I love dark hair, a heart-shaped face, and I love Asian women's voices. "

Have to agree with you on those features, epecially the voice. Add to that the slender wrists and tapered elegant fingers. So, here's a question for you: have you thought about the threshold of attraction? As in, if you like Asian girls, is there a line that must be crossed for them to be Asian enough? If you find one of those Japanese imports with very wide eyes and dyed-brown hair, is she Asian enough? For Asian American women, if they act like your buddy (as do many women from the Generation-Y's "I never take the least bit of s**t from any guy, swear like a hooker, drink like a fish" group), does that reduce her exoticness? If she looks very , say, Korean with that distinctively beautiful facial bone structure but makes every behavior modification to distance herself from that ethnic group - is that a turn off?

When is an Asian woman inadequately Asian? Also, do you have a similar reaction to Asian-Indian women? (BTW, A.I. women are possibly the most talented conversationalists on the planet.)

South Asian women are great. I lived in Cambridge UK and for a year I was surrounded by brilliant, gorgeous Indian students - the accent was nice too. As far as what's "Asian enough", it's not really even the "Asian" part that matters. I like the Christina Ricci's of the world, with the dark hair and pretty face. And I don't know how much I'd actually want to be with someone actually from overseas. It could be fantastic, and there could be misunderstandings and a cultural divide. So far when I've dated Asian girls they were raised here. They had some of their parents' culture but were also thoroughly American like me.

JIll, the thing is, you're completely right. However, an overly defensive guy can't be rational and say "oh, you're right, I don't have to justify who I am attracted to by denigrating those I am not attracted to."

That would be nice, but let's face it, it probably won't happen until white/Asian pairings are more common. I suppose I can admit, as a white girl married to a Japanese guy (yeah, me too! ^_^), that I have never had to defend my choice to anyone. Most of my friends think my guy is a little boring (he's not into football like us, he didn't watch all the shows we talk about, etc), but I don't feel it necessary to defend our relationship (after all, I think he's interesting).

I can see that a white guy could get stereotyped as only wanting an Asian girlfriend because he 'has a fetish" and that would lead guys who like Asian girls to get overly defensive whenever the subject is brought up.

I assume that's why there's so many overly defensive posts on the subject, many of which are understandable (while a few are sort of shameful and give the rest a bad name). Everyone deserves to love the one they are attracted to. But no one deserves to be called a freak for it. By the same token, no race deserves to be categorized as unattractive sight unseen.

And don't worry about those weirdos who assume Japan is there for pillaging Jp girls and nothing else. You didn't marry one, after all! ^_~

d.travers wrote " I like the Christina Ricci's of the world, with the dark hair and pretty face. "

I'm left wondering how many impressionable young boys were influenced by the physical types depicted in cartoons such as Olive Oil or Snow White. Otherwise, there may simply be a level of attractiveness in a maximization of contrast, as in, black hair and very light skin. If self-similarity has any play sexual attraction, the use of hair lightening agents by women may have the effect of reducing their attractiveness in the eyes of men controlled more strongly by this selection process.

Another major problem is that every time this topic bubbles up, women assume that they have a monopoly on knowledge about all innate male attraction. That's like the average man giving the average woman advice on PMS or what it really feels like to carry a child: they're simply unqualified to do so.

Ha, you got me pegged with the Snow White reference, that was a big influence. It's all about the contrast, and that's the only reason I can think of why I'm usually not attracted to blondes. Contrast and contradictions are always interesting, if nothing else, whether it's appearance, personality, or art. Pale blondes just don't seem as "present" to me.

ps: just a disclaimer, I -know- this is all just about the surface... I'm not so shallow that this is all I notice, when a woman first speaks to me then it's a lot more about personality.

Ian Blokesworth:

d.travers wrote " I like the Christina Ricci's of the world, with the dark hair and pretty face. "

I'm left wondering how many impressionable young boys were influenced by the physical types depicted in cartoons such as Olive Oil or Snow White. Otherwise, there may simply be a level of attractiveness in a maximization of contrast, as in, black hair and very light skin. If self-similarity has any play sexual attraction, the use of hair lightening agents by women may have the effect of reducing their attractiveness in the eyes of men controlled more strongly by this selection process.

Another major problem is that every time this topic bubbles up, women assume that they have a monopoly on knowledge about all innate male attraction. That's like the average man giving the average woman advice on PMS or what it really feels like to carry a child: they're simply unqualified to do so.

Ian,

About the second part of your post - I've noticed that a lot too. For 30 years stand-up comedians, sitcoms, and commercials have drilled it into everyone's head that men are simple, easy-to-decipher, less selective and less idiosyncratic than women are. Somewhere along the way the cartoonish joke turned into people's actual opinions of who men are - and even a lot of men bought into that too.