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also
by Dawn Coyote..
for a woman in that time with no family and no connections, his patronage of her would make him a hero of a kind, would it not?"
You, sir,
by Schrodinger

are fast becoming my most favoritist poster around this place. I give you a + 10000000000000000000.

This rest of this thread, however, gets - 30.

Re: What about the other woman?
by Schrodinger
Dawn Coyote..:

And what about the foil wrapping on the woman?

It's so the aliens can't see her insides.

Many 17th century Dutch
by Camille Claudel

painters painting moralizing paintings. Jan Steen especially. In some, you see children partaking in their parent's revelry - the lesson is that you are a model for your children.

But absolutely - there is no criticism here of the man - that's a mostly 20th century notion, no?

Anyway, you cross Heda with ter Borch and you get my main (Dutch) man.

Feeling like you're ready to talk yet?
by Camille Claudel
I've never claimed expertise. So, when you're ready. (You might consider taking a laxative first.)
nice.
by Camille Claudel
Appreciate the effort....
Why Talk To Idiots Like You?
by Zeus-Boy

Perhaps you could answer that since talking to idiots is something you love to hate to do.

Besides, I find talking to idiots like you serves no useful or meaningful purpose.

Here's a suggestion: "Simplify your life: Kill yourself."

I can't kill myself.
by Camille Claudel

I'm already dead.

(But that's ancient history.)

Anyway, when you're feeling better, let me know.

...and the dress.....
by Camille Claudel
certainly not something worn on the civilized streets......
Snort, snort
by meridiantoo

Ik ben gelukkig om van hulp te zijn.

M2

As I said
by meridiantoo

ever in service to the arts.

Uh, maybe I wrote that.

M2

Betrothal? Brothel? . .Betrothel?
by Thrasymachus

This painting looks like it was carefully designed to be almost (but not quite) consistent with two equally plausible (but equally flawed) interpretations: the young man is either in a bordello and asking the young woman for sex, or he's in the young woman's parlor and asking for her hand in marriage. Neither explanation fits completely (I'll get to that in a moment). . . but they both come close, and they're the only ones that do. That's what I find amusing: the painting, by underscoring the similarities between marriage and prostitution, is also slyly hinting that they are equivalent.

The "bordello" interpretation is an imperfect fit (to me, at least) because of its borderline inconsistency with some of the painting's details. The standing woman's dress is, as you say, "a little too much of this and that" for a respectable maiden at home. . . but it's also a lot too much of everything (in terms of coverage) for a respectable whore at a brothel. The dress also looks expensive as hell, and hard to get into (or out of) without the help of a valet. . .which makes it all but inevitable that it will eventually be ripped off her body (and in half) by some impatient, drunken client, at considerable (and unecessary) cost to all concerned. And also... look at her hair. There's nothing remotely casual about her elaborate, intricate arrangement of ribbons and braids. . .and no mistaking the investment of time and effort that she put into it. If the standing woman is at home, and the seated man is her sweetheart, her behavior makes perfect sense; but if she's in a bordello, and the seated man is just some random client, her behavior makes no sense at all.

Likewise incongruous, in the context of a bordello: the madam is drinking but the client is not; the madam is ignoring the client; the hooker is ignoring the client; the hooker and the client are both ignoring the madam; and the one client of a whorehouse containing one room, one bed, one madam, one whore, and one wineglass. . .isn't getting laid, isn't getting drunk, and he can't get rid of his money. Come on, now. . . how plausible is that?

Which brings me to. . . the candle on the table, and the dog. If dogs were in common use as symbols for prostitution before the 19th Century (and Caillebotte), it's news to me. And as for candles, aside from a single obscure English custom (by which a prostitute -and only a prostitute- could save a man condemned to death by slowly approaching him, as he stands on the gallows, with a burning white candle held in each of her two outstretched hands and marrying him on the spot) I'm not aware of any symbolic connection between candles and prostitutes, ever. I think they're more interesting as household objects in this context than as symbols. A dog seems more likely to turn up in a household than a brothel. . .and the candle is interesting primarily because, if you'll notice, it isn't lit. And neither is anything else, although the scene is fairly bright. This suggests that the room is being lit by daylight, which in turn implies: 1) that the scene is taking place during the day; and 2) that the curtains in front of the windows are not closed, implying that there is nothing shameful (or, at least, no shame) about whatever is going on.

One final point: if there's one thing that the painting doesn't depict, it's a father sternly lecturing his daughter. The man and the standing woman are clearly about the same age. . . and he looks nothing like her. In fact, come to think of it, he doesn't look like a Dutchman. And even if he WAS the girl's father, why on Earth would he be wearing a sword and carrying a big, fancy hat around in his own house? How is it possible that nobody ever noticed, for hundreds of years, that the painting didn't show what they thought it showed?

Re: Betrothal? Brothel? . .Betrothel?
by Schadenfreude

Good. Wonder how much more light there would be if the painting were fully restored?

The dress is a bit of a mystery. Seems far too fine for a whorehouse - looks like silk. I suppose it might be a dressing gown, but then those laces up the back don't seem right. Who around here knows the finer points of 17th century Dutch women's clothing?

Re: Betrothal? Brothel? . .Betrothel?
by MaryAnn

That's what I find amusing: the painting, by underscoring the similarities between marriage and prostitution, is also slyly hinting that they are equivalent.

Nice insight, Thras.

On the other hand, why do we have to come to a definitive "answer"? Why can't we accept the painting's ambiguity, admire the artist's ability (and devices) to convey such ambiguity, and notice the fine brushwork on the younger woman's dress?

very nice.
by Camille Claudel

Anyway - lots of points back.

1. Candlesticks were, surprisingly (to me too) a major theme. Hope this link works. (Let me know if it doesn't get you to the description containing the discussion of the candlestick.) This work, by Havicksz, was actually where I was first put onto the candlestick theme. Note the dog too.

2. The painting is currently on display at the Frans Hals Museum. I don't have time to look at each work, but the description beside it, which contained the information, was what I took a fancy too. The misinterpretion, for years, of the work. That the symbolism lost its significance is fascinating, to me.

3. The dress isn't a lot too much for the 17th century - for a top notch bordello - that's a pretty nice bed. But he looks like he can afford it.

4. That does look like lust in his eyes.

5. It's common when your client is someone special that when not alone with him, you avert your eyes. Alternatively, they might just want to get down to business, and want to end any idle chat. And also consider, the painter can't depict all that much more (Vermeer pushed it to the limit in the work I cited to Dawn, above.)

6. Unlikely too, that he'd want to paint a face on the young woman.

7. The candle isn't currently the source of light - that's for sure. It's just there for the symbolism.

Anyway, glad you added your two cents.

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