1) Reshaping the region has been the fantasy that Bush and his supporters has been selling for years.

2) My comment about the same people criticising Obama but defended Bush's lack of experience was directed at many people in the media and the blogosphere, not any one person in particular.

3) Bush has never been thoughtful about anything in his life and especially not Iraq, so I don't see how McCain could "continue" that. But, yes, he does plan on continuing the unsustainable open-ended commitment to occupying Iraq. It's a policy that's been a disaster so far and I don't expect anything to change.

4) The only "magical" thinking going on her is the belief that continuing down the same path Bush has followed for five years now will result in different results. It is well past time for the Iraqis to "stand up so that we can stand down", but that's not going to happen unless they know that they have a deadline where they can't rely on us for internal security. Think of it as a parent-child relationship. As much as a parent may want to solve all of their child's problems for the rest of their life, sooner or later, the parent has to let the child find their own way and make their own mistakes.

5) The bottom line for me, the only "responsibility" I believe that we have towards Iraq is to give them their country back.

Analytical.2.A.T:

P.S. Hey Greatbear,

What if we do withdraw because we think this magical change will occur in Iraqi security forces and we are wrong? That is where the complaints will come in about what're we doing about the atrocities in Iraq by the Taliban, or the Sunni's, or the Turkish, etc.

Considering that the Taliban were never in Iraq and have no chance of getting from their current location along the Afghan border with Pakistant to be able to take over Iraq, I'm not worried about them committing atrocities in Iraq. In Afghanistan, yes. But that's a different example of Bush's incompetence.

The Turks are still our NATO allies, so if you think we're going to engage them in combat to stop them from committing atrocities (assuming that they do) in Iraq, then you really don't understand the geopolitical reality.

As for the sunnis or the shi'ites, as noted in the policy statement I posted from Obama's website, we can keep troops in the region to intervene if necessary. But again, the primary responsibility for stopping any atrocities should be the Iraqi government's.

Bush has been promsing that all we need to do is hang on just a little longer and the right "magical" changes, as you called them, in the Iraqi government would just happen. Well, that haven't. Obviously, the Bush-McCain plan has not produced the "magical" changes that are needed to put Iraqis back in charge of Iraq. It's time to try something different.

Research sites; Item – 1 The Taliban's connection with Iraq began before the US-led attack there in 2003 ; Item – 2 Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban in Afghanistan are in contact with Iraq and a group from Taliban and Osama Bin Laden group visited Iraq.(Circa 2003 Iraq Intelligence) ; Item – 3 Documents Support Saddam-Taliban Connection. Check out these links and then we'll talk about Taliban. I was only using the others as examples, however, the Turks are more than eager to take out the Kurds. Don't fool yourself with this NATO allies talk. They will throw that away as fast as spit on you for being non-muslim.

Interesting that your sources contradict each other. One claims that the Taliban sent fighters to oppose Saddam. Another claims they were courting an alliance with him. In any event, if there are any Taliban fighters in Iraq today, then they are miniscule compared to those from Iran or Saudi Arabia.

As for the Turks, while they are a muslim people, Turkey is a secular state. Believe it or not, a non-muslim can travel in Istanbul without fear of being spat upon. Actually, most muslims are able to get through the day w/o spitting on non-muslims. I know that's hard for nutbars like Debbie Schlussel to comprehend, but it's true.

Also, my original point was not that the Turks want to keep the Kurds from gaining their own state. Obviously, they do. My point is, that WE are not going to engage a NATO ally in combat over the Kurds.