Just a little liteweight chat w/lord running clam. He gave a opinion. I gave him a polite observation and chance to expand. I thought.

Don't assume I have problems with women asserting their equality. I never asserted they were not equal. I don't care for Ayn Rand's Objectivism philosophy, though, which seemed to be a major pillar of 'classic' feminism, and the element I'm attacking, if I do.

"Understand that when one group has been oppressing another group for a long amount of time, it is hard to bring things to a balance. It is not an immediate thing that is remedied with the passage of one law. It requires in years of changing paradigms as well as laws. Often there is a backlash where people overcompensate to try and help the oppressed parties. It is not some form of persecution as you ridiculously assert. "

Sorry, I apologize, I was failing to understand. Conditions are different everywhere. I was only considering the instances in my local major city where affirmative action was being used to deny employing white guys in government and schools. Most people are not racists, anymore, and all races are somewhat for their own race or ethnic anyway. It can be seen in the local stores where I live. Whatever the manager is, the bulk, usually all of the employees are the same. Unless the managers white, then it's a diversified crew. After all these years I'd rather go forward, like Obama..

There is & has been a lot of comments on the internet about misandry like matieral in television & movies, and my wife mentioned it to me more than once. It's not noticible to you though, you say? I was just playing Detective, and inviting people to play with me asking questions. Like, if it is being done on purpose, why? One idea, just for starters- Hillary Clinton. Political operators are doing it to build/keep built up a simmering anger among men against percieved feminists, and even democrat men vote against her. What other reasons might motivate this, cui bono?

Sorry again for trampling on SATC. Have good night/day whatever.

I thought the video I linked was wryly humorous, given the subject.

<link>

According to this were basicly ZPG since 1972

The Saratoga andthe Reliant are Mirandas. I'm really a Constitution circa 2262.

"I find that a lot of men who complain about misandry are really just having an issue with woman trying to assert their equality. It's fine if you don't like equality. But be honest about it instead of trying to turn yourself into an alternate victim"

Deduction:

I think it's pretty shortsighted of you to make this claim. This is one of the issues I have with Feminism; somehow it always boils down to the men having problems with stong women. I personally don't know any men that have problems with strong women. Most guys love strong women. What they don't like is the resentment that is directed towards them for, simply, being men. Just as your posts illustratres. You casually toss of the previous poster's comment as being due to his problem with women, which is totally unfair.

"I find that a lot of men who complain about misandry are really just having an issue with woman trying to assert their equality. It's fine if you don't like equality. But be honest about it instead of trying to turn yourself into an alternate victim"

Deduction:

I think it's pretty shortsighted of you to make this claim. This is one of the issues I have with Feminism; somehow it always boils down to the men having problems with stong women. I personally don't know any men that have problems with strong women. Most guys love strong women. What they don't like is the resentment that is directed towards them for, simply, being men. Just as your posts illustratres. You casually toss of the previous poster's comment as being due to his problem with women, which is totally unfair and lacks any evidence. Sadly, it's commonly accpeted as being true.

Then you missed my point. I was simply responding to blueskies assertion (or implication) that there is a systematical institutionalized form of misandry in our country that is being driven by women (some all female mafia clan or cartel? idk!).

I also was not giving tacit approval to those who are guilty of misandry. I deplore any form of institutionalized bigotry or hate and definitely don't think it does anything for discourse. I only was pointing out that the people who were creating what he considered misandric entertainment were men themselves. So the question should be turned more inwards than outwards. Why DO men portray themselves this way? To lower expectations? IDK. But it would be a much more interesting discussion than setting up a straw man in the form of "Woman".

Many guys love strong women, sure. I couldn't tell you how many and would never assert that it was most. Also, what people like/want and what they SAY they like/want are two different things. I'm not sure what that has to with my post as I never made any kind of statement about strong women, etc... Only about those who felt the need to make victims of themselves. It's not gender specific, we just happen to be talking about gender at the moment.

I was only considering the instances in my local major city where affirmative action was being used to deny employing white guys in government and schools. Most people are not racists, anymore, and all races are somewhat for their own race or ethnic anyway. It can be seen in the local stores where I live. Whatever the manager is, the bulk, usually all of the employees are the same. Unless the managers white, then it's a diversified crew. After all these years I'd rather go forward, like Obama..

Two gross generalizations which I would like you to qualify.

Easy one first, I fail to see how you can determine how many people are racist. I assert that most of us are racist to some extent. You even acknowledge as much with your own statement. Many people want to believe that they are a lot more openminded than they really are (including myself), but every experience in our lives color our personalities and our judgments. So perhaps unconsciously the majority might be more for people of their own cultural identification (notice I don't say race. The two are NOT the same.)

Secondly, I'm tired as hell of the "(insert racial group) are being denied employment" malarkey being sold. Especially when you discuss it in terms of "white men" who have (if you want to group every man considered "white" in a group- which makes no sense to me but hey whatever floats your boat) traditionally had more power as a group than anyone else in this country. When exactly did that change? Are the majority of power players in our country Asian and transgendered, is there a secret cabal of African women running things? I could go on, but it sounds silly.

I am not sure why you felt the need to bring affirmative action into this matter, but since you did, note that I am not a fan of affirmative action, although I understand the reason it came into existence and the rationality behind it. I don't think it actually works in a real world model, though.

What I AM in favor of is diversity. People that complained about diversity in school admissions policies don't seem to understand the concept that at a learning institution, it would benefit the learning environment to have a diverse population instead of a homogenous one. They don't seem to understand that we have a multicultural country and it makes sense to explore and understand different folks instead of cowardly hiding oneself in segregated communities. If all things being equal, a school or job chooses a candidate who represents a more multicultural perspective, i have little problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the criteria- which shouldn't just be what color your skin is or isn't, but who you are as a person and what you can contribute to the learning or work environment.

Give me some specific examples if you truly want to discuss any of these issues instead of just blaming everything on vague boogeymen.

Deduction:

I don't think his point was to say that there is pervasive misandry, but commenting that the "male buffoon" is a fixture in modern media. And, yes many men do create this media, but to appeal to a certain audience.

My point about strong woman was in reference to "...women asserting their equality." So, maybe that was my misread of the emphasis on "assertion."

Only about those who felt the need to make victims of themselves. It's not gender specific, we just happen to be talking about gender at the moment.

And I agree with this, but again, I don't think he was claiming to be a victim, he was just bringing up a point.

If you have read many of his other posts, misandry is something that he harps on alot. I don't feel from reading some of these that this comes from a rational place. If it did, he would see it's not men v. women- at least not on this particular topic- and he is trying to make it into such a thing.

Media not only reflects the population, it manipulates the population. It's a circle. Men create an image of buffonery, men and women both eat this image up and consider the stereotype a reality. They then make the stereotype real by modeling their real life behaviour and attitudes on those they've been taught by the media.

If you look at demographics or know anything about the entertainment industry, the target demo has traditionally been young males, specifically young white males. Sure, with the advent of a society struggling for more balance and diversity and with a proliferation of entertainment outlets, this is changing. But, in general, hollywood still employs the same antiquated thinking behind their marketing strategies. And then they always act surprised when something goes out of their expected norms. Why do you think that the majority of movies have many male leading parts all with interesting characters and then one "hot chick" who is the love interest. Sometimes she's smart, sometimes she's badass, many times she's just hot. These top usually male execs create things this way for other men.

I agree about the issue, but think he's delusional if he thinks that womankind is the enemy in this situation or the originator of the issue. I don't think you'll find many women who are as tolerant of buffonery in real life as is shown on the boob tube. And if you notice what women tend to respond to when it comes to television husbands, they seem to respond more warmly (judging by message boards, etc...) to portrayals of men who are caring, smart, strong, good looking, etc... In other words, it's not like there's a huge feminine base whose ideal mate are insensitive jerks who expect the wives to do everything re: the family and clear up his buffoonish messes. But still I can name at least 5 sitcoms on tv in prime time or syndication that use this as their premise. And I would bet that most of them were created by men.

Actually, the buffoon thing can easily be cleared up by noting this. These kinds of shows are usually star vehicles for stand up comics who base much of their material on real life situations that they think resound with the populace. Much of comedy is complaining about things and many complaints that we have are pretty silly when you confront them on a screen.

All this just to say again: there is no female conspiracy against men, but women are still trying to deal with the effects of thousands of years of being considered and treated as second class citizens in most societies and cultures throughout the millenia.

Deduction:

I agree. Well stated points.

We got our own TV Shows!

Star Trekking, across the universe,
On the Starship Enterprise, under Captain Kirk!
Star Trekking, across the universe,
Boldly going forward, still can't find reverse!

WAKE UP!!! The very idea of "someone strong to put me in my place" that is just sickening! I am an "old person" who grew up with "put in my place" attitudes, it sucked and still sucks - big time!!! I disagree with with you most strongly. SATC is about as far from real life (at least my life and the women I know) as --- well a cartoon.

I share it, as I find it bespeaks a willfull self-infantilization and a refusal of responisibility. But I've heard many women say that's what they want--once, it was from a woman seeking a doctoral degree in physics.

deduction:

Media not only reflects the population, it manipulates the population. It's a circle. Men create an image of buffonery, men and women both eat this image up and consider the stereotype a reality. They then make the stereotype real by modeling their real life behaviour and attitudes on those they've been taught by the media.

If you look at demographics or know anything about the entertainment industry, the target demo has traditionally been young males, specifically young white males.

This could lead to an interesting conversation about just who these "men" are and what sort of household they were raised in. Were they raised by a single mother who considered the presence of a man to be superfluous and irrelevant? Is that why the demographics of the young white males prefer to see commercials and programs that depict the female as the only true adult in the equation, given that's what they were raised around?

I am offended by the rash of programs and commercials that depict men as nothing more than overgrown children that women exasperatingly tolerate. I saw a commercial the other day; the woman was talking to the camera about yogurt and behind her, her SO was looking in the fridge. At one point the woman turned around and said, "Hon, what are you doing?" in a patronizing tone more suitable for an 8 year old and I so badly wanted the man to turn to her and say, "I'm looking in my goddam fridge in my goddam home for something to goddam eat! What's it to you?"

Blueskies: there is a simple answer to most of your questions: as the Chinese have always said, culture is powerful. When the US took up the idea that an uncontrolled mixture of cultural immigrants is a marvelous thing, they (we) chose to ignore that culture comes along with the immigrants, so the situation of dissolving ideas of "what's right", i.e. lack of consensus about the simplest things, and a fragmenting of the "culture" is a perfectly predictable result. That doesn't mean we can't all be civilised, but alienation is to be expected, as are antagonistic groups. disigny