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Re: Attention All Obama Supporters
by R Stuart
The Democratic Party doesn't seem so democratic now does it. . As a First American it seems some one is speaking with a forked tougue.
Re: Attention All Obama Supporters
by Thevail

BTW..I like "First American"..that's just cool, and avoids the ubiquitous use of the word indigenous.

Hillary Supporters all think that the superdlegates know what they're supposed to do. OK. So they'll obviously respect the judgement of the superdlegates when it comes.

Obama supporters think the superdelegates will do what's right. OK, that's a wait and see game.

So where's the argument?

I, for one, don't care if Hillary drops out of the race or not. I mean, it's her race, not mine. As long as she stays away from divisive negative campaigning (which IMHO should really be reserved for the other party) then so what?

Sit back and see what the superdelegates do.

Re: Superdelegates may vote for whatever reason they wish.
by MaryAnne
Beathan:

Why are you blaming Obama for the fiasco in MI and FL? The decision was made by the DNC, not by Obama. Both Obama and Clinton agreed with the decision at the time -- and both promised to abide by it -- and both campaigned accordingly. Obama has consistently said that he would abide by the DNC's determinations on this issue -- even if the DNC changes its mind. Clinton, having fallen behind everywhere Obama was allowed to campaign, realized that she needed to votes of the two states that voted based on not much more than name recognition (which has proven to be her only advantage). Thus, Clinton hypocritically changed her position on MI and FL.

Obama has offered solutions to the problem -- and is continuing to do so -- but he is not posturing or issuing ultimatums on this issue. It is a DNC issue -- and a DNC problem. The DNC can and should resolve it -- and in a manner that is as fair as possible to everyone. This means that we should keep faith with the voters of MI and FL and not completely disenfranchise them; but is also means that we should keep faith with the other 48 states, which followed the rules, by not letting MI and FL get away with their scofflaw primaries. There must be consequences -- but the consequences should be different than the hamhanded decision to strip all delegates.

Beathan

Why? Because Obama's team of attorneys have been fighting every sep of the way to keep Fl. amd Mich. out!

Republican legislatures set up the date of the Primaries.Obama wants the depegates evenly divided. No Way! Hillary won fair and square in Florida! Why should Obama get half?

Re: Attention All Obama Supporters
by brownapril

If anyone is interested in reading, here is an article from the DailyKos entitled "A Brief History of Superdelegates", Poblano, Feb. 15, 2008:

<link>

The article discusses the 1972 McGovern nomination in some detail. According to the author, although McGovern "had earned 57% of the delegates, he had only 25% of the popular vote, in what was essentially a three-way tie with Hubert Humphrey and George Wallace." The author explains that this occurred in part due to irregularities in the rules from state to state with some states being winner-take-all states and some proportionally allocating delegates. Further, the author explains, "McGovern won the roughly 25% of the Democratic electorate that represented anti-war progressives, and Wallace won the 25% of Southern/segregationalist votes. The remaining 50% vote of mainline Democrats was split between several weak candidates, and so one of the factional candidates was able to win....

So, rather than to override the will of the electorate, superdelegates were created in some sense to enforce it in elections whose results were skewed by odd delegate allocations or weak multi-way fields that would allow a fringe candidate to win a plurality. Both of these conditions prevailed in 1972; neither of them do in 2008."

The DailyKos article cites four reasons for the inclusion of superdelegates in the nominating process in 1982: 1) To increase the sense of order and avert a crisis at the Convention; 2) To get party officials more involved with the eventual nominee; 3) To nominate a candidate who can win; 4) To check against a plurality, factional candidate who does not reflect the prevailing sentiment of the electorate. As to points 3 and 4, the author concludes:

rejecting a candidate who was perceived to have received the majority of support from the voters in a two-person contest would be harmful to the Party, all else being equal. And so the superdelegates would have to have an extremely strong rationale to do something like that. The only plausible such rationale that seems to be present from the "founders' documents" would be to nominate the more electable candidate. However, because a candidate who was nominated in contradiction to the will of the pledged delegates would probably be rendered less electable by that process, there would need to be a very strong difference in electability for that to come into play.

There has been a nomination contest in which the superdelegates played a role in selecting the party nominee. In 1984, Walter Mondale won the democratic nomination by gaining the support of sufficient superdelegates; however, the superdelegates did not go against the will of the voters, Mondale having the lead over Hart in the number of elected delegates won in primaries and caucuses.

It is interesting to note, and somewhat ironic, that organized feminists initially argued against superdelegates:

Technical Advisory Committee Member Susan Estrich of Massachusetts argued that creating a new category of delegates who were not subject to the fair reflection and candidate right of approval rules would create a new status of delegate which she referred to as “super-delegates.” These delegates, argued Estrich, would be overwhelmingly white and male. Even were they balanced by an equal number of women in the total delegation — there would still be the problem of “equal power.” The “super-delegates” because of their greater flexibility in the choice of a nominee, would have greater power than the female delegates committed to presidential candidates. (“Unintended Consequences,” by Susan Estrich, Memorandum to the Hunt Commission, September 9, 1981.)

Quoted in "A History of 'Super-Delegates' in the Democratic Party," Elaine Karmack, Feb. 14, 2008, <link>

Here are a couple of other articles of interest:

<link>

<link>

Both ultimately suggest that historically superdelegates ratify the results of primaries and caucuses rather than using their influence to overrule the voice of the people.

Re: Attention All Obama Supporters
by artandsoul

RM77 - you wrote: "Superdelegates should vote what is best for the Party and not what is best for a particular candidate. "

I'll stipulate to that!

And I'll go one step farther and say Obama *IS* what is best for the party!

So they are doing their job!

As has been said, it's a good thing Obama is talking about positions and filling them with experienced people who are willing to work for the good of America! I think that is an excellent way to unite the party and get on with the business of the General Election!

Bravo! Obama '08!

Re: Superdelegates may vote for whatever reason they wish.
by Greatbear452
RM77:

Because Obama wins are mostly in red states, which will never turn blue in November. You must consider electoral vote states. Do you want to win the nomination or win in November? As it stands now, Obama is not likely to carry FL, Ohio, PA, CT, etc. Electoral maps show consistently that Obama cannot get 270. Should the superdelegates ignore that?

Ugh.

For the 10,000th time. Winning or losing a state during the primary is no indication that you will will or lose it during the general election. They are two different animals. Primaries are decided by the party faithful. Every state has SOME members of each party, regardless of its tendency in then general election to go red or blue. General elections are decided by independents.

Take NY and IL. Hillary won the former while Obama won the latter. But both are solidly blue states so regardless of which ends up being the nominee, the democrats will win those states. CT is also a solidly blue state, so saying that Obama is unlikely to win it just because Hillary won it is nonsensical.

As for the swing states, the test is not who won them in the primary, it's who has the better appeal to independents. In that test, Obama has the edge and Hillary has a higher negative rating among indepedents and more voters who say they will not vote for her under any circumstances.

Re: Superdelegates may vote for whatever reason they wish.
by NightSwimmer
Regarding HRC: The 800 pound gorilla in the room is that having her as the Democratic nominee would expand the GOP turnout as no other nominee could.
Re: Update for you, pwx:
by Lunesta
What a bizarre post, really that's all I can say. One more thing: via politically well-connected friends in AZ, I happen to KNOW what positions he has offered to Janet Napolitano. All part of the deal of politics as usual -- you know the "old politics" that he so (supposedly) abhors?. It's rumored he has offered the same two positions to other 'endorsers' --he's quite the "Playuh," your candidate, he is. Btw, that's not a compliment. As for "hitting the ground running on Day One," it's Sen. McCain who will be doing that.
Re: Update for you, pwx:
by Thevail

politically well connected friends in Arizona....so you're a republican? Explains the support of McCain anyway.

Besides..no proof = no credibility.

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