I disagree with the suggestion that 80% of adults should have college degrees -- the only way that is possible is to dumb down the program more than is already the case.

I would prefer the German (or Swiss) system where most professionals (eg engineers, accountants, bankers etc) do not have degrees but came up through the apprenticeship program. When I was in Switzerland the engineers with apprenticeships held exactly the same positions as did the few with PhDs. Same with the accountants.

Other potential advantages of the apprentice system is that people who come up that way have more practical experience. I deal with a number of other techs who have degrees and all kind of certifications who can barely format a hard drive. I look at people who have certifications but little actual expereince as someone who can pass a test. For the most part, I'd rather have someone who learned their trade by doing it over someone who just learned it from a book

"I would prefer the German (or Swiss) system where most professionals (eg engineers, accountants, bankers etc) do not have degrees but came up through the apprenticeship program."

Good point. I've dealt with some awfully dumb engineers and spend quite a bit of my modern keyboard time abusing a PhD economist or two.

tsedek:

Good discussion. More tomorrow, if you're willing.

Yes, I agree!

The wife and I are banishing ourselves to a bed and breakfast in New Buffalo, MI this weekend. If the thread is still going Monday, I'll chime back in.

I agree that you can't just throw money at schools and hope... unfortunately, that's just the beginning. I think we've got to spend a lot more time and money fixing the education/poverty problem than we've ever been willing to. Fortunately, this is one of those expenses that could pay for itself in the end with increased productivity, a lower jail population, and lower welfare costs. At least that's the hope.

Have a great weekend!

I don't think that we need to dumb it down that much more. Already here for accountants, you take a certain number of accounting classes and then study and pass the CPA exam. One is not required to have a full BA in most states.

If you think European accountants are better off because of apprenticeships, you haven't dealt with the way accountants actually work in Europe (I have!).

My argument is that we need to open paths to education and bolster infrastructure of this sort. I also think we need to look at adding extra taxes to the knowledge industries (software, media, etc) and use this to offer more tuition grants. As someone in this industry, I would be *happy* for my business to charge extra taxes if it meant that there were more qualified workers I could hire.

I think there is are two groups of people who go to college: there are those who study what they think will make them money and those who study what they want to learn. As a software engineer, I would rather hire a bright history major than an average comp sci major for software engineering work. Unfortunately most HR departments are clueless to this reality though.

Finally, we need to refocus on critical thinking skills. Education in the humanities is becoming ever-more focused on self-esteem rather than critical thinking, and hence good ideas such as multiculturalism are uniformly badly executed.

BTW, I have a liberal arts degree. I work as a software engineer. And I am a full member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. Self-study is a wonderful thing and it is the best skill to develop while at college.

Males, particularly white males, are a privileged class in the US.

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Well, they could also be giving 'priority' to black males and Hispanic males etc. The black male is possibly the rarest demographic group in any college campus -- the gender gap in educational achievment in the black community is quite well established, I believe.

Assuming that this is serious, the main factor is poor people having children that they can't provide adequately for. It is as much a white, rural problem as it is black inner city. A child growing up without a father in poverty is at a serious disadvantage to a child growing up in a two parent, reasonably comfortable household. This crosses racial and ethnic lines.

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Hit nail on head.......

spend quite a bit of my modern keyboard time abusing a PhD economist or two.

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:) :) EVERYBODY abuses economists. We've learned to wear it as badge of pride (when we're not abusing each other, that is......).

Ideally we would combine them like we do with medicine. 1) Get a college education. (BA/BS) 2) Get specialized education. (MD) 3) Get an apprenticeship (Internship/residency).

Already here for accountants, you take a certain number of accounting classes and then study and pass the CPA exam. One is not required to have a full BA in most states.

If you think European accountants are better off because of apprenticeships, you haven't dealt with the way accountants actually work in Europe (I have!).

I am a CPA and have been for more than 30 years. Most states now require at least a year beyond a BS/BA to be eligible.

I worked in for 5 years in Switzerland in the finance department for an $8 billion multinational mining/manufacturing group, and of the 8 professionals on our team, one was a PhD, I was a US CPA and the rest were through the apprenticeship program. We all did the same job (just had different geographic responsibilities) and technically, the PhD was one of the weaker ones.

Our organization won several awards for superior financial reporting for Swiss public companies.

Sorry, but I would put that team up against any similar team of US MBAs.