Washington was, and Menachem Begin and Jomo Kenyatta and Nelson Mandella and George Habash, terrorists all. It's just a matter of perspective, the term long ago arriving at the point of meaninglessness. Maybe these 'new' posters are really just long time posters who've simply forgotten their passwords. Then again, maybe it is a plot. Kinda neat that somebody thinks our opinion is so important that they go to all the trouble getting on here just to slander the freedom fighting Tibetans. fuck the chinese. Hey there's an idea! I vote that beginning today, we all refuse to capitalize china or chinese. that'll show em. I wonder where the Dalai Lama buys those glasses.

The fray is endlessly fascinating this way. Wonder why this happening with them doing this here. And additionally fascinating that they seem to have a sympathetic republican ideological bent.

Laurie:

The Chinese are a proud people, do not ever mistake it. They do want the Olympics in China and it is their moment in the sun. Anything that would take away from the Olympics can be construed as a loss of face for China.

It is interesting that they did find their way to Slate Magazine, The Fray, and Appelbaum's article. What would ignite that big a response would be interesting to know. Maybe a trigger of some type?

do you think you need a new list?

because really, you can do the old one over and over and over again ....

Nick:

You are pissing in the wind on China. China rtrade is here to stay regarless of what we do or say. I believe the more important issue is finding a way to mitigate the loss of jobs and benefits.

Since 1997 we have lost ~3.6 million manufacturing jobs of which ~3.2 million came between 2000 and 2007. That is one hell of a labor pool doing pretty much nothing today. Many of those jobs did go to Asia/China.

I have no doubt our technology gives us the ability to compete in terms of direct labor cost. Where we can not compete is the cost associated with labor . . . Social Security, healthcare, etc. These are costs that do not exist overseas for the most part. Therein lies the difference which is not ending up in the consumer's hands in entirety and much is being poscketed by corporations.

If you really want to even the table and compete solely on direct labor cost, tax the product coming back into the US for the difference in lost cost associated with labor and leave labor out of the equation. Any raw material shipped into China (unless exempted) faces a 20% VAT and a 7% Duty (US has a 4% Duty coming into country). Use that to buty healthcare and fund SS, etc.

Before the income tax, the US used to funded by tariffs. It would not be unusual.

they are very proud and this is their shining moment coming up: The Olympics.

I bet you are right and it is a big part if the impetus that caused them to start seeking out online political discussion boards. It looks like a real must see. Will have to check out later and see what's developing over there with posts and reply discussions.

Very interesting,indeed. Especially because for many centuries they have been so walled off from the rest of the World.

This is one of the most interesting things about life today with the amazing advent of the internet.

I once posted a lot to the China Daily. Doing so, I became aware of large numbers of media minders whose job it was (and apprently still) to interdict Internet traffic and impose government povs on public conversations. "Smothering" is a word that comes to mind. The organization of media minders is quite incredible. Fighting it is like trying to punch out the Yellow River.

... if The Fray had a sitemeter, anybody who cared could look at a world map of Internet "visitors" currently looking at Fray.

For example, here's the Fluwiki sitemeter ...

<link>

... Fluwiki Who's on?

<link>

... and the Fluwiki Visitors by WorldMap

<link>

(If you look closely at the map, you might see yourself.)

My point: Moira isn't saying in so many words, but she probably knows what cooks.

That's why our world is so messed up. because there are so many people like you. You already nuked japan, invaded Iraq. now you want to nuke china. I think you should be nuked first!

yes, your government won't murder you for speaking out, but your government murders millions around the world, look at iraq , vietnman and korea!

The sentiment of your comment is useful, but your way of putting leaves somethng to be desired.

America needs criticism on many points that have been vigorously criticized abroad, but not so much here except by a few disgusted Americans. It's good that a few disgusted Chinese are laying it on us here. That represents a breakthrough of sorts.

But it's not all good.

My advice to you is to find more eloquent spokesmen or to consider your arguments more carefully before you post them here. Our rainman's usual aim and method is to infuriate BOTF Democrats by posing as an insufferable ass. When you reply to him in kind, the credibility of your criticism (let us confess, somewhat valid, in and of itself) suffers by association.

Be more constructive in your criticism. I urge you to play to the hypocrisy angle; we Americans are especially vulnerable to facts of our decadence and hypocrisy. For example:

Bush expresses concern about Tibet to Chinese

Also acknowledges mistake on missile fuse shipment to Taiwan

<link>

Given the symmetry of China's decades long occupation of Tibet to America's five year occupation of Iraq, will President Hu Jintao tell Bush to mind his own business or ask him to withdraw American troops from Iraq?

Again, try to be constructive; your mission is to hold the mirror to Medusa's face but not provoke her to a state of self-righteous fury. (Good luck with that.)

Finally, in case you're not, be ready for a tidal wave of unfavorable comment on China in return. You may find parts of anti-Chinese American counterpoint well deserved and hard to handle.

"Before the income tax, the US used to funded by tariffs. It would not be unusual."

Say WhaTO?

It would be post GATT.

greeneggs:

The US was totally funded by tariffs in the 19th century. A tax on product coming into the US would subsidize healthcare, SS, etc. as the funding is lost, as well as the healthcare, when people do not work. 3 million people sitting on the sidelines due to globalization, unfair and fair, is an asset, trained and untrained, the US can ill afford to keep idle. The difference being, the US does care about its people and how they end up. Of course, we could just let them starve? Heh?

Say what?? VAT coming into China is not a violation of WTO? If we can invade Iraq for no good cause, WTO is not an issue either, which China proves daily. So spare me your tripe and your hyperbole. If you want to be an apologist for China, you will have to do far better than this. No one is shutting China off. The US have to make up the difference in lost funding. Believe it or not, Obama may be coming close to understanding the issues.

Last response egg and ham boy.

Who said I'm a boy?

Today I'm acting as an apologist for the WTO. In 2004 the US complained to the WTO about China's use of a VAT refund on domestically produced integrated circuits that essentially levied a tax on some foreign ICs but not domestically made ICs. China agreed to stop doing this during settlement discussions.

It would be difficult to turn around and start doing the same thing we recently complained about to the WTO.

If you want to boycott something, boycott the new mercantilism.

Take the trillion dollars we plan to spend on our next stupid military adventure and spend it on education for Americans who have lost bolt twisting jobs to workers overseas.