We're not discussing Obama's father. We're discussing a voluntary association that he chose to continue for twenty years. In essence he voted in favor of the principles being expounded in his church by his active participation in that church.

You and Arche are discussing this from a philosophical, perhaps human, perspective. But from a pragmatic perspective this sort of nuance is going to kill his bid for the presidency in a very large part of this country. White men, who make up a sizable portion of the electorate, want to hear Wright's nutty pronouncements repudiated simply and unambiguously. That's not what they got today.

One is stuck with one's father. I would not voluntarily patronize any establishment that espoused the things Wright's church espoused. I'd leave. I'd expect any decent person to leave. There's always a good reason to continue doing the wrong thing.

OK, a twenty year association is ample time to run the whole gamut of human experience, at least in social/religious/political contexts in a setting like a church, wouldn't you say? If in that time he also witnessed principles propounded by the very same pastor that represented the very highest achievements of human dignity, then is his also tainted by association to the good?

What kind of balance obtains here? Weighed in the scales is Wright only a man who must be repudiated, or is there another side to his character? Are there many sides to his character? And is Barack Obama guilty by his association with only the most negative one? I think the white men you allude to are quite capable of comprehending the nuances here. It's not that complicated to see that people are complicated.

Supposing you'd also witnessed glorious things in Wright's church, profound acts of grace and generosity and goodness, are you going to pack it in because of the things you don't like? I know we're stuck with our fathers, but you brought up yours, and Obama has called Wright his spiritual mentor, kinda like his spiritual father.

All told, though, you're probably right, as are Schadenfreude and TNT above. Obama is boxed in now and a great speech about the Ashleys and old black men of the US won't cut it. Personally, I think it's the height of indecency to dump him over this, but I'm not voting so my opinion is irrelevant anyway.

I've sung with the same choir for ten years now. That is my family. Some of these people used to be married to each other and now the only time they see each other is at church and rehearsal, but just because they're divorced doesn't mean they don't belong to that family.

Everytime I go home to Illinois, I go to church early on Sunday so I can pick out a robe and sing with my old choir. That's still my family, too. We all know that. If home is the place you go where they can't kick you out, well that's what I'm talking about.

Politically, we don't agree on anything. Politics don't have nothing to do with it. Forty people, one voice. I don't know what else family can mean.

I'm with Tony on this one....I thought he was quite clear. He must be posing as someone with a brain.

Jack

shows, Jack. When you, I and Bald Tony agree, Obama is in trouble! As for Arty, of course, she knows what BT was saying -- but in her blind devotion to "Saint Obama," she's playing coy. (My guess, that is) . I'm changing my earlier moniker for him, Barack O'Slimy to Barack O'Phony as of tonight. Can you believe these suckers being taken in by that load of crap & pseudo-idealistic rhetoric? Not running as "The Black Candidate," eh? Could have fooled me. The HELL he's not. He's the Candidate of White Guilt, as well. He lost a lost of people today with this speech, hopefully more than he gained or just reassured. Talk about someone who is NOT READY for the Presidency -- it's as clear as the ears on the side of his face.

Personally, I think Obama has known all along that his pastor of 20 years standing harbors those anti-white feelings. How could he NOT? If he's that easily fooled and chooses to remain in denial (plus now having lied, first having claimed he "never" heard his Minister say such things, today admitting that he DID), he's definitely NOT the person we need in charge of this country. Also, Michelle Obama's ON THE RECORD anti-white comments buttress, at least for me, this theory/assumption. He is both of their minister and they BOTH have known him for around 20 years; I do not want this woman representing our country, especially overseas, as "our" First Lady.

You're willing to go some distance to find the good in this. But, be honest here. If we suddenly discovered that John McCain (or any white politician) had been close friends for twenty years, had in fact received spiritual counseling and advice, from Tom Mezger (White Supremacist) what whould his political fortunes look like? Is there enough gray on your palette to paint a compassionate picture for that? Maybe there is for you, but most people would have a problem taking that guy seriously as a national leader. They'd see that as a real point of concern even though Tom Metzger may have done many kind and wonderful things in his life leaving out the neo-Nazism.

If Barack chooses a paranoid racist as his spiritual advisor I'd say that's a big problem, judgement-wise. I wouldn't send him to prison over it, or anything but I wouldn't be likely to give him the keys to the kingdom either.

ellen_..

Unlike the guys in this thread, I'm not that cynical about 'consequences' for Obama about Wright and his speech today. I don't think he is 'boxed in' and will be forced to run a gauntlet in the coming weeks. I think Hillary is the one who has been cornered and she will be creating (as usual) the face she thinks will work to make her look more human and unifying. If she just panders to 'feminists' and the demographics she thinks will work for her, she will be the loser. I think her curtain has been blown and her attack dog shtick will have the false teeth it always had. A few days ago I was thinking that the accumulated partisan negativity was like a pustule that had to be pricked for a cleansing. and that is what Obama's speech opened up..a stream to carry visible and hidden poison into the light of day..and away from the body politic. Of course there will be no mass healing..Obama is no saint. and if he was, his situation would have been much worse due to the general mud slinging and evident fear one sees on Hillary's face..that has become indelible. In an exchange with Demosthenes2 a few days ago I posted:
<link>

And my thoughts were answered by Obama's speech. He has sounded a new note, thrown a creative challenge into this political contest ..and America will be watching and listening. I don't think he boxed himself in. I think he cleaned out an Augean Stable by channeling waters of honesty and courage into the muck..Of course the stable mates will keep shitting..but their stockpile is gone. I look forward to all the new voters who are not like the Lunestas who only vote for their own image..in life or at the voting booth..and would vote Republican if their idol didn't win the nomination.
A

Thanks for posting the link to the NYT for the entire speech, Artemesia. I read it earlier tonight and just finished viewing it. I had missed it this morning... I was very impressed. The man seems earnest and strong in his beliefs. I get a true sense he really cares about the people of America and has the ability to be a great president. The more I hear him speak the more I respect him.

~ Galatea

For those who missed the entire speech and want to watch and listen to it, here's the <link>

*~*~*~*~ (((( Barack Obama 2008 )))) ~*~*~*~*

ellen__:

As with his book "Audacity of Hope" he wrote this speech himself.'

Since he's from Chicago, I guess I could say he hit a homer out of the park, at Wrigley Field.

Might this be the best speech, so clean and spare, with no fluff (B.S.) we Americans might ever have the honor of hearing, I wonder. I''m still a bit giddy, I hope America realizes what a rare treasure he is.

***********
I agree ellen. And I just can't understand how anyone could or would not appreciate the things he said.

His speech was tremendous and a joy to listen to!

~ Galatea

*~*~*~*~ (((( Barack Obama 2008 )))) ~*~*~*~*

Boy, if only all these lefties could have found it in their heart to hold the same ammount of "understanding" and forgiveness for Senator George Allen. It was obvious that the man was not a racist and had no idea the "macaca" was a derogatory term. Which pretty much makes their understanding of the insane rants of Obama's pastor seem pretty much BS.

Sarge the fray is merely a very small microcosm of the most insanely politically obsessed whackos on the planet, trying to find some sort of outlet for the insane meanderings of their addled minds.

That said, most Americans would ever condone Obama, nor do I believe for one second most people will condone or fall for Obama's slick excuses.

The majority sees him for the slick phony he is.

Just realize that and know the vast majority of common sensed and more stable folks in the majority reallize there is no excuse for Obama's 20 year support of a rabid hate monger and racist like Rev. Wright.

Obama takes his little girls to lsiten to those hate filled diatribes.

That's sick.

The vast majority recognize that.

Let the air heads rant about his silky voice and unjustifiable spin on why he goes to Trinity Church.

Most people see through Mr. Obama.

You aren't black and you are not Christian and you don't get it. He explained his quandary crystal clear; he is telling you that most black preachers stand up against the system... black preachers are very political... that's why he says he could no sooner disown his preacher than he could disown all black America. Here's a clue for you, BT; being black in America is not a pile of rose petals. If he had left this church, where would he have gone? You don't know, you have never been there, or done that, have you? But you sit there in your ignorance and flip off about nonsense that has no ground in the real world. "If he had been Trent Lott"? What does that mean? If he had been white? He's not white and neither is his world anything like Trent Lott's.

I've been a member of all black churches. the singing is terrible, you sit there and love it because it is all so bad. It doesn't matter because you aren't there for the singing... or the preaching (the preaching is awful also)... you are there because God has placed you in this family; we call it "God's family" in black or white or any other church that bears the name of jesus; and that's why we call each other brother and sister; it isn't a black thing, it comes from the scriptures - which you are ignorant of also.

you don't even come close to having a clue... if the subject was Mars, you are busy spouting off about Mercury. That's how far off the mark you are, on this one.

Are you saying I'm an unstable, obsessed with Sen Obama, whacko, air head?
Although I'm now completely estranged from the Cllnton's campaign, I have never thought of her supporters to have gone loco or to be suffering from some strange, exotic mental illness.

When you so singularly go after Rev. Wright with such intense fervor and hatred, do you feel that same way about Rush Limbaugh and Michael Savage and Jerry Falwell and John Hagee and Pat Robertson, (there's tons more) ranters, bigots and racists all, from the right?

I believe that black churches have traditionally served not only as places of worship, but as safe havens from the harsh realities of life, a place of their own to go to and join in fellowship without fear of discrimination.

I've been to a few small black churches in the South that I love. They are I'm glad to say lovingly preserved and stand as a brave testament to the genocidal holocaust that has been black folks lot only too often in America.
Reparations are due descendants of slavery, just as they are due to victims of the Holocaust. imho.

I'm not black and I'm not a Christian so I can't and don't get it. You're black, so you get it. He should save his breath then and not waste it giving speeches to white people who won't get it because we're not black and not Christian.

I guess all those other folks who agree with you on this board are black also. They get it. I'm white so I don't.