Once upon a time I was eighteen and not quite the tolerant, sophisticated, witty, educated and urbane fellow that I have become. I was a gun platform in the infantry and a lunkhead. Full Stop. The military did not teach me the diplomatic skills that come with self-reflection and and self-study. I think it would have been a waste of time. These wonderful guys are, at once, full of promise, and yet, so terribly flawed with the most enviable of traits...youth! I would hate to meet the person I was then and I like the person that I have become. Let us hope that these Marines, and those like them, come back to us without injury so that they will have the opportunity to become ex-lunkheads.

I think the Iraq war is different. I think the culture is different. I've met many soldiers from the first Gulf War; they were just a few years ahead of me in school. They're noble people, by and large. They represent the ideal of the noble military as much as is possible by real, live humans.

I've met 'veterans' of the current war a few times in my life at this point. Never has the experience been good. The times I overhear them, read their blogs, it's all just worse. They LIKE needless pain; they WANT empty dominance. And they will afflict our society when they return. They voted themselves into this war, and when they return, their unprecidented rates of PTSD will make them much more likely to abuse their spouses and children, to tax our social services, to be difficult and unpleasant citizens in general. And they VOTED for that.

I don't respect today's American military. It's not noble, or just, or even compotent. It's just scary.

It's always a mark of great intelligence to use personal, anecdotal evidence to cast your prejudice upon a group of people numbering well over one hundred thousand.

I guess I love the people they will become a bit more than the ones that I see now. So, I am a bit more forgiving. Brokaw's Greatest Generation had its share of lunkheads and see what they did. Maybe you have seen your share of moronic behaviors by some returning veterans but please give them the opportunity to achieve and grow before over generalzing about an entire generation.

wow, that's quite a perceived difference from one war to another.

Funny though, as a 23 yr old in the first go round and a 36 yr old on the return ticket, I found "Joe" to be about the same on both occasions. He's young, insecure, observant, violent, curious, bold, more worried his buddies will call him a coward (or worse) than afraid of incoming rounds, he's got it all figured out, and hasn't got a clue--in short, he's like every other 18 or 19 yr old kid in a factory, on a farm or in a dormitory today, except he took a bold step forward and volunteered.

this is also the kid upon whom we as leaders place great trust and responsibility, and in whom we are rarely disappointed.

When people talk of the greatest generation, and gloss over soldiers' violence and idiocy in WWII, I ask they read some of the accounts by people like Paul Fussell. Reading his personal description of a junior infantry leader trying to crack the Siegfried line 60 years ago brings back the same smells, fears and panic I felt only a few years ago.

Instead of the filter and voice of Ernie Pyle however, we get our war live and uncensored.

Sultan

Seems you need to hang out with a different crowd. For every vet out there who is as you described there are a hundred up standing young men who while they might suffer from PTSD, are not abusing their spouses or children, and are not a tax on social services but are productive members of society. In truth it seems you need to re-evaluate your standing in society.

Whatever my 'standing in society', indeed whatever you think of me, you can't argue with the facts. Soldiers with PTSD have higher rates of spousal and child abuse.

Period. Full Stop.

The military overwhelimingly supported Bush in 2004, especially compared with the rest of the population. Funny, usually conservative military types demand that people take responsability for their own actions. I guess not in this case...

And as for the cracks about personal experiences . . . STFU. Someone comes on here and posts a positive experience and suddenly the experience is a shining beacon of hope and truth. *I* come here and post a personal experience backed up with cold hard facts and reality and suddenly I'm sarcasticly referred to as marked with high intelligence.

You may not like it, but as more soldiers come back and have problems integrating into society, my point of view will most certainly become more common. If this is how you all respond to me, I look forward to the general public loathing the military even more. This wasn't Vietnam, after all, no one was drafted, and so each soldier bears individual blame for this unjust war.

bdthedell,

I agree with both of your posts. I have had similar experiences. I was all but felt up in a giftshop in the Baltimore airport by a pack of returning marines(I was travelling with my little daughter). They made rude remarks that I think were meant to be sexy and impressive, however when I eventually told them to F off and wondered aloud how they managed to miss returning in body bags they showed themselves to be the aggressive assholes that they are. I don't hire military vets either, they are never worth the trouble.

If you are hiring these lunkheads for public relations jobs, then you just might be making a mistake. And, if you need them for construction work...then take a chance. However, if you are hiring them to blow up the Taliban in Afghanistan...I am hiring!!!

So you prove to be one that would never stand up for this country. The vast majority of those in the military did not expect to have to go to war and a large percentage of them belive they are fighting in the wrong place at this time. You can bring up all the polls you want but remember those polls are slanted by the media to say what the media wants to say and do not truly reflect reality.

You go on about "personal experiences", without understanding that your experiences come about because of the company you keep and your personal choices. You talk about a few that you have run across out of tens of thousands and seem to feel it reflects the majority. My personal experiences come from dealing with thousands, both in working with those wtih PTSD and helping them to cope, (not looking down on them like you do) and a very small percentage that I deal with have abused anyone/thing. But I have delt with thousands of civilians who have abused thier wifes/children and others around them......so I guess if I was like you I could say that my experences prove that civilian life causes abuse.

"I don't hire military vets either, they are never worth the trouble."

God, I hope you're kidding.

Backed up with facts? I did not see any citations from the American Journal of Medicine or authoratitive source. You obviously hate the military and George Bush, which is your right, but do not expect everyone to endorse and agree with you.

As for each soldier bearing the blame for this unjust war, that is the responsability of the Bush Administration and Haliburton profiteers. Many soldiers in the volunteer army come from disadvantaged backgrounds. They join the military as a way to an education, training and a better life. Combat was the gamble they took.

Yes PTSD takes a toll on the soldier and his family. Congress stripped the Veterans Hospitals of funding, and the resources to respond and help are inadequate for the physical injuries much less the emotional scars.

While many young military men are lunkheads, lets talk about the lunkheads from liberal Ivy League schools who are filing frivilous law suits to get rich, who have bankrupted and looted corporations destroying jobs and defrauded stockholders. I guess it is ok because they hold the right political views.

Not kidding.

funny, i dont hire females for the same reasons...not worth the trouble...

RS -

Proud of your discriminatory, illegal hiring practices?