Are US prisons suffering from the same issues? Inmates that enter US prisons have a greater chance of getting indoctrinated into more hardcore criminals, largely because once they are sitgmatized with a prison record it is harder and harder for them to find normal work and re-integrate into society.

And prisons are a huge breeding ground for gangs, which prey on inmates with this stigmatization.

Why not apply these same tactics to helping our own prison populations re-integrate into normal society? Or are we just going to ignore them because they are mostly black?

With educational programs, vocational programs and so on....I thought we already were doing that in our prisons? There are quite a varied number of programs offering differing philosophies for prisoner reform programs....no need to imply that somone isn't trying to reform criminals and reintegrate them into society just because they are "mostly black."

Perhaps we should start with good parenting. Teach parents that school isn't a daycare for their brats...that getting good grades isn't a negative, that being successful isnt selling out. Perhaps if more parents and neighborhoods strove to set a positive example for their kids...our prison populations would begin to dwindle. Parents actually punish their children for acting out, and neighbors act as eachothers eyes and ears while looking out for eachothers children.

You make an excellent point, Rubma. Good parenting would solve a lot of problems. Now we just have to teach parents how to be good parents and that is not as easy as it seems.

When you grow up in an abusive home or surrounded by addicts and addictions it's pretty hard to find a path out of it and become a good parent yourself. We celebrate those who do but they are rare.

It would take a (gasp) social program to either try and re-educate at risk parents or even better, get to their kids while they are young and teach them that there are better ways to live. But all know how much conservatives like social programs.

Unless the US commits and spends the money necessary to ensure pregnant women don't drink and drug, that children get the necessary nutrition, that someone is there to help with discipline and education, we will never see the end of our prisons.

And we'll never see the end of them anyway, because no matter how much money we throw at this problem we will never stop people from breaking the law. Therein lies one of conservatives problems with social programs. They want to see 100% success and that will never be. But wouldn't even 50% success be desirable?

With the rise in social spending, it would seem crime has yet to yield in any significant percentage. I haven't researched it, but I don't think welfare programs have done anything to curb poverty either. The problem is so much more than throwing a few extra Benjamins at it. So no, I don't believe freebies and giveaways are going to solve this problem. Like the saying goes, "give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he won't be standing at the federal trough."

There is nothing that replaces the worth of something that you have earned vice been given. If I know I don't have to do shit to get paid...what reason do I have to change that?

I agree with you. But putting people in prison isn't solving it either. The US puts more people in prison than any other developed nation. We can parse those statistics in many ways, but suffice to say we have the largest prison population in US history.

In order to teach someone how to fish you have to throw benjamins at them. There's no way around it. You can do it in prison or do it before they get there.

I would opine that the reason we haven't seen social programs lower crime is because we haven't dedicated the time to figure out what works. The US has never totally committed to any social program.

Yes, welfare does breed dependence. I would prefer to throw my money away on some Americans who are scamming me than a on rebuilding a country we destroyed, but that's another argument. I agree that something earned breeds self reliance and self respect. But you still fail to realize that the vast majority of people who are raised in crime infested neighborhoods, in abusive families, with univolved parents, surrounded by addictive behaviors have no possible way of knowing they can get out.

This, I think is important so I hope you read this far. I served with a man who was the hardest working, proudest man I ever met. He doted on his two children and worked his full time AF job as well as a managers job for McDonald's to give them the life he never had.

He was raised in New Orleans with six brothers. His father was a drug addict and his mother a sometime prostitute. All his brothers were either in jail, on welfare, or on drugs. He bailed them out of jail and cleaned them up when he could.

He told me he would listen to guys shooting up heroin outside his bedroom window. He would find used condoms in the front yard and needles on the street on his way to school. He'd seen men killed when he was a child. I asked him how he turned out so differently than he brothers.

He told it was because he was sent to live with his grandparents who farmed in Alabama. They didn't have much money but his grandfather taught him to work hard and be proud and that he could accomplish something with his life. His brothers didn't have that opportunity.

So the moral, to me, of this story is that showing a child that there is a different world out there and that he or she can be part of it worked much better than incarceration and punishment. It's a fact that reward works far better to encourage desirable behavior than punishment.

What we should be figuring out is how can we replicate the success my friend found and not make more men like his brothers. That takes time, money, and commitment. We can't start it and then fail to fund it. Success will benefit all of us.

We could give them money, free education, cheap housing, free day care....maybe that would inspire a bunch of the poor and downtrodden to rise up? Wait, we already do that. Free medical care maybe would sweeten the deal and inspire a mass push for self-improvement?

A lack of upward mobility is more a combination of attitude and personal decisions than any budget will remedy. There are plenty of people that grew up in conditions of squalor and violence, that rose out of it. Biggest influence in my opinion, were the parents....nothing any budget can replace. It's a matter of the parents teaching those traits that will enable a child to see his/her situation for what it is and choose to rise above it.

I worked with an officer that grew up extremely poor. We would eat chicken, and he would gather up our scraps and gnaw whatever was left on the bones...breaking them up to get to the marrow. We would go to a restaurant and he would eat what other patrons had left on their tables. This was normal in his life. It's what he had learned to do to survive. He realized his situation, did what he had to survive it, and used that determination and experience to strive for his own success later in life.

In another experience, while living in Chicago. I can remember a woman complaining on the news one Thanksgiving that she didn't get the free turkey she was promised and got a free ham instead. This was all food that was being donated by the good citizens of that city. As an 11 year old, I was turned off by that experience. It put into perspective the mindset that this particular woman wasn't interested in improving her condition, she only wanted what she could get for free out of the deal. What do you propose would fix or change that mindset? A bigger budget? More volunteers and/or social workers?

Poverty levels really haven't changed over history, even with the onset of LBJ's "Great Society" push. A strong economy tends to be the best bulwark we have against poverty. We spend too much money keeping people poor...

<link>

Take a breath, Rubma. Who said anything about giving people free stuff? I agreed with you that welfare does breed dependence although I have personally known people to get off welfare and improve themselves because of it.

No, free medical care doesn't inspire self improvement(although it may, I have just never met anyone who said it did). Free medical care is a different discussion. My personal opinion is that as a nation of decent people and some would say a Christian nation, it is morally unacceptable to deny people medical care. Morally unacceptable that a young man died in DC because of an abcessed tooth that would have cost a couple of hundred dollars to fix. Morality is deeply important to me.

Your statement about upward mobility shows your relative youth and circumstance. Have you ever lived in a housing project? It's not a child's fault his or her parents brought him into those circumstances. It's far more likely a child will continue in those circumstances than move up out of them. You are not accounting for the psychology of living in a dump. Trust me, it drags you down. One mistake and your chances of getting out are almost nil.

We agree that the biggest determiner of success are the parents. What happens when the parents are not able to provide decent parenting? Do we just write those kids off? How can a drug addicted parent possibly help their kids? How can someone who has never seen good parenting know what good parenting is?

I think it's pretty apparent more people don't lift themselves out of poverty than do. And you cite the stats to prove it. We celebrate those who do but just ignore the greater population of those who don't. I believe that those who did get out had some leg up. I am an example. I was not raised wealthy but I was lucky to have parents who demanded a lot. When I left home I was set for failure. I mean I was failing fast and hard. There were two roads ahead for me; welfare mom or make some really hard choices and get out.

Two things worked for me. First of all my parents taught me how to make hard choices. They instilled responsiblity into me. They showed me what I could achieve (regardless of the fact that I wasn't putting that into such good practice). Second, I made some choices that some would consider unacceptable. I left an abusive husband and joined the military.

I knew so many in my previous life that couldn't get out. Now I can crow about my great judgement or I can be honest. If I had a child or had gotten arrested along with the ex then I would not be where I am today. I knew people who were uneducated and couldn't pass the ASVAB. I knew people who were slightly learning impaired and just couldn't get their shit together. I knew the drug addled and the abused. Some cleaned up their act but most couldn't.

I used to do food bank deliveries too. I saw the same type you mention. The problem is that they have been taught to be dependent. They see no shame in accepting a handout. Forget them. We will never get rid of them. Concentrate on the ones who really need it and appreciate it.

I agree that poverty levels haven't dropped but I guess you didn't read the part where I said we need time to figure out what works and what doesn't. Even with Johnson's War on Poverty we didn't commit the kind of resources and effort really needed to make a difference.

The Jews say if you save one life you save the world. It's a decision to be optimistic instead of pessimistic. That's where our effort should be. To me, to save one person is worth it all.

I find it a waste of time and effort. Those that want to change will do what it takes...others will make excuses why they can't. I have no qualms about helping those that truly deserve it...but out of those that live below the poverty line, there is a smaller percentage that truly can't do anything about their condition. Most can work and are able-bodied...just that welfare pays more than minimum wage, crime pays more than minimum wage. But raising minimum wage isn't going to fix it...it will still be minimum wage. All it will do is raise the price of basic goods that are offered at places that pay workers minimum wage, such as supermarkets and convenience stores. So zilch on that option.

As for how I grew up...parents divorced when I was 12. Dad pushed on to get his degree and retired from the military. Mom, a vet that never collected on her benefits, continued to do the same job she had always done...she can type her ass off, but no computer savvy. Technology changed, mom didn't... She talked a lot about catching up with technology to stay competetive in her career choice...but didn't. She never made much money. And never did anything to change that...and the world kept turning. She is a brilliant woman, smarter than she gives herself credit for...but never had the motivation to continue to advance her abilities. Now, she collects unemployment in Ohio...lost her job a few months ago. She's a registered democrat, that was working in a republican political office that called people for "support".

Point is, she made her choices....of her own free will. Something we still get to do in a free country...until you get the government involved in your personal life. Do you really think it necessary that you for example, pay for those choices? She is my mother, and I love her dearly...and is welcome to live with me at any time she feels compelled, I'll even help her move. Meanwhile, a 60 year old secretary that never sought to evolve her skills is out looking for a job...collecting unemployment, and will most likely not find a job much more than a call center. I will gladly send her to school to learn a new trade or advance the one she has...and that I feel is my responsibility, not yours or anyone elses.

With freedom comes the responsibility to be accountable for the choices you make. If you want free food, housing, and medical care....go to prison.

I appreciate your thoughtful reply and in many ways agree with you.

Take your mom. She had some advantages and chose not to utilize them. That was her choice. She was fortunate to have had those advantages and it's unfortunate that she chooses not to work harder to get ahead.

What about those who don't and will never have your mom's chances?

Your thought process ties everything up neatly and makes it easy to ignore those who are left behind. People and life are much more complicated than that.

Freedom does indeed come with responsibilities. We have responsibilities to others who are not as fortunate as us. We have a Christian obligation too (if you are of that persuasion).

The success of everyone in our country is our success too. There is no shame in trying to help. We can spend a billion a week in Iraq or a billion a year here.

My sister runs a government funded program called Upward Bound. They take kids from homes that are poor or have addicted parents or missing parents. She tells me that most of those kids simply don't know they can go to college. It is not in their repertoire. They don't know what they are capable of. You had your father as a role model, who do these kids have? A drunk dad and a mom who disappeared.

Upward Bound has a great success rate. They take these kids on to the university grounds during summer. Give them college prep classes. Take them to museums, plays, etc, exposing them to culture and the larger society. Her program has about a 60% success rate getting kids through college. One got a Rhodes Scholarship. Several have entered the military, a couple into service academies. Not too shabby and it costs a hell of lot less than flying sorties over Iraq.

No, it's not 100% successful but we don't have 100% success now. We don't even have 25% success so 60% is a big improvement. Just think that one of those kids might go on to be the next Petraeus or Steven Hawkings. Doesn't that make it worth it?

Even if none do rise to that level, they become employable, tax-paying members of society that stay out of jail.

It's worth it to me.

I think your sister has a great idea, and it appears to be working better than anything else I have seen. Exposing people to a world outside of their own neighborhood is also a major pillar of education. I agree, our children need more cultural experience than what they see on TV. The adults for the most part are a lost cause.... Children, fall under the definition of those that need help and can't help themselves, and I have no qualms with helping those that are truly in need. Like I said, there are a lot of people without jobs for no other reason than they chose to be that way.