First of all, comparing prejudice and the damage that is has called is a fool's gambit. Do you really think that saying women, especially women of Hillary Clinton's stature and position, have had it harder than blacks?

We can play the number game if you like.

Number of women in the US Senate: 16 now, 35 total.
Number of African Americans in the US Senate: 3 since 1900, 5 total
(The numbers in the house are similar but females hold an edge there)

Number of women who have served as governors: 29
Number of African Americans who have served as governors: 4

They have both had problems breaking that glass ceiling don't you think?


As to my example of her winning the urban areas in New York was not to point out that she couldn't win there. it was to point out that her hold on that elusive white male vote doesn't even hold in her home state during a general election.

Obama has proven just as viable in the those areas as Clinton.

Tell that story about Chicago politics to Obama's opponent from 1996.

Most posters never really answered the original question and most have gone into a clash of personality. If you want to call me on my coming into the Fray, then I must ask you why you came after me with an accusation of going after F_E? That I did not. I was trying to answer points of argument put forth by people who were saying why they hated Obama and most of those seemed to be coming from not having the right information.

I have lived in a big city so I know what that is like, however I am not talk about mere passing association, but rather active close personal and business friendships.

Ayers gathered money with the help of Obama and filtered it to a professor at NYU that was the head of the Press Office for the Palestinian government from the early 70's to early 80's and has ties to PLO. Ayers and Obama both sat on the Woods Fund board. The Woods Fund is supposed to be a grant making foundation to help poor people, but in reality it is a front used to funnel money to Islamic causes and terrorism.

Ayers is the co-founder of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which was publicly created to raise funds to help reform the Chicago public schools. Ayers then hired Obama to be the new director of this program. When Obama decided to run for the Illinois State Senate it was Ayers and his wife that helped organize the campaign and hosted Obama’s first fundraiser in the district. Obama served on the board for eight years until the Challenge ended in 2003. Bill Ayers was intimately involved in the Challenge over this same time period.

Then in a debate on ABC Obama claimed, “Not someone I’ve accepted endorsement of, it’s not someone I exchange ideas with on a regular basis…” Can you say liar?

Ayers helped select Obama to exercise a leadership role on the Annenberg Challenge. And Obama wants us to believe they never talked? Never exchanged ideas? Never identified issues to raise and policies to pursue? What is Barack hiding? How come you’re unaware of this?

Michelle Obama worked at the Sidley Austin law firm in Chicago in the summer of 1988 and stayed there until 1991. Who else worked there? None other than Bill Ayers’ wife, Bernardine Dohrn, who worked at Sidley from 1984 through 1988. Indeed, she is widely thought in Chicago to have gotten this position due to the influence of her father-in-law, Thomas Ayers, former CEO of Commonwealth Edison, who was one of the law firm’s biggest clients.

And you believe that Ayers is a “mere” acquaintance?

Obama and Rezko are friends. Rezko has funneled money to know Islamic terrorists and unless Obama is a complete moron he knew about it. Rezko helped Obama with a land deal that allowed Obama to buy his house at a $300,000 discount. Another party to the land deal was Nadhami Auchi, who is an Iraq born billionaire, former Baathist party member, and close confident of Saddam Hussein. He was tried along with Saddam for the assassination plot against the Iraqi Prime Minister Abdul Karim Qasim in 1959. Auchi is linked to Obama through Tony Rezko. It is believed that Rezko contacted Obama to help Auchi obtain a visa to enter the US in 2005 after being denied a visa the previous year. It has not been proven at this time and Obama has denied helping Auchi. As of Feb 2008 the Times of London has reported "state documents in Illinois recording that Fintrade Services, a Panamanian company, lent money to (an) Obama fundraiser in May 2005. Fintrade's directors include Ibtisam Auchi, the name of Mr. Auchi's wife." Auchi also transferred 3.5 million dollars to Rezko in order to invest in Rezko’s 62 acres of prime real estate in Chicago’s south loop. Apparently Obama and Auchi met at a party in 2004, however Obama has no recollection of meeting Auchi.

Still think Rezko isn’t connected to Obama?

I attend what we call Congregation, which is effectively a Church, but without the pagan meaning of the word “church”. To a true believer your politics are influenced by your faith. I pay very close attention to what my Rabbi says and I would not follow him if I didn’t know and agree with his politics. I’m just not naïve enough to follow someone without knowing where he or she stands, and I don’t believe that Obama is either. Therefore the only logical thing to assume is that he knew full well how his pastor and spiritual advisor felt and he agreed with him. If he didn’t agree with him he would not have stuck around for most of his adult life. It’s simply against human nature.

My close friends are all conservatives. This is because we have common beliefs and interests, but they don’t all agree with me on every issue. The difference is that none of my friends are racist, none of them hate their country, and none of them support domestic and Islamic terrorism against the United States. I wouldn’t allow myself to associate with such people.

I am aware that being a Democrat doesn’t necessarily mean that someone is a liberal, but in the case of the founders of the KKK it was true. They simply felt that blacks and other non-whites were less than human and therefore did not qualify for the same rights as whites. It was religious and moral conservatives that started the abolitionist movement and most of them were Republicans.

The KKK are part of the lunatic fringe and do not represent conservative or Republican values.

Cassandra

pig:

Amongst all races, women are the most discriminated against both economically and otherwise. Amongst all races, African-Americans are discriminated against both economically and otherwise. It is in that order. Granted African-Americans face discrimination; but amongst that race alone, women face a higher level of discrimination. You are looking at a smaller subset of the population and I do not believe you have quantified it as to gender. For example, how many black women have served as governor or senator as compared to males (0 gov. and 1 senator)? As for white women? I am sure the percentage is equally as small. And yes they both have issues; but, gender is still the biggest issue.

I didn't call you upon coming to The Fray, I called you on posting to my post when it was addressed to guiltarman questioning him on labeling her post a rant and then questioning you on why you did not answer the text of my post. You are more than welcome to post to me if it is to topic.As most will tell you, I am more an economist and social-economist than a political scientist. You will find me in Moneybox, The Bottom Line, or BOTF

By the way, banana is a troll who throws out a lot of sock-puppets.

opus:

who are you addressing?

March Numbers:

If Clinton wins the nomination, just 50% of Obama voters say they would be even somewhat likely to vote for her against John McCain. Thirty-five percent (35%) say they are Not at All Likely to vote for Clinton in the general election.

On the other hand, if Obama wins the nomination, just 52% of Clinton voters would be even somewhat likely to vote for him against John McCain. Twenty-five percent (25%) say they are Not at All Likely to vote for Obama in the general election.

And yes there are serious Dem issues as it will be a close race.

female engineer you NAILED it

Huh? You might have shown a bit more originality.

Spank you

Except Farrakhan is evil while Hagee is not.

Cassandra

As I have pointed out more than once, if you make it a habit of using personal attacks you compel the other person to defend him or herself. If you attack my intelligence then you compel me to list my education. If you attack my accomplishments then you compel me to list them. If you attack my integrity then you compel me to refute your baseless accusations. In other words, if you’re tired of reading about who and what I am then you need to stop questioning me about it.

Defending myself against uncalled for and misplaced personal attacks is not even the same thing as pimping myself out. I can get over myself the minute you do the same. If you don’t want to get personal and huggy/feely then stop stepping into my personal space.

Cassandra

Ok, Thank you Cindy :-)

Cassandra

Bananabran, You were touting your greatness long before I entered the conversation. Some people just beg to have their ego called on the carpet.

I don't attack your integrity at all and you know it. I attack your long-winded, self-involved, pointless rants. When you have a point, which you could actually state in one or two sentences but chose to grind into borrrring pontifications, I address the point (if I can find it). Unfortunately your points are not particularly sophisticated nor do you support them well, which is why you have to constantly pimp yourself.

I'm not the first nor will I be the last to tell you to get over yourself. Stick to the issue and for the love of God, learn to cut out the chaff in your posts.

Here's a hint. When someone counters whatever point you may be trying to make, then learn to support your issue. You try to support your issues by talking about "if you knew who I am..." or "If you knew my education/ethnicity/gender/ yada, yada, yada..."

It's not about you. It's about the issues.

Do not listen to this person, plantainpontoon, for you are the most honest person on the web. It is not your fault that she cannot stand the fact that you are so accomplished at such an early age. Having an intellect that could be barely contained, I too grew up in a Skinner Box. And while I do not accept the tenets of behavioral psychology, I feel it has made me the whatever I am today.

And I sit enthralled with your accounts of academia and what possibly could be home schooling. I could have gotten into some much better schools if mothers didn't give me a C+ in intelligent design (I could never get the throw pillows to fit in to the whole scheme of things). But my numerous degrees, far too many to count really, especially since Trump University went online. I got five last week.

So, I know. I know the pain you feel that people don't look at the way they should. You are a mental giantess and if only they knew.

I get that same feeling. But they'll know. All of them will know. Expecially mothers. Lousy C+. I show'll them.

Why is the standard first reaction to any Obama criticism "is it racism?".

Another case of one side of an argument writing off the other side without ever engaging in any serious thought. Convienent.

Please - stop doing this. It reduces the real chance for a healthy debate which is crucial to democratic process.

Give me an Amen and a Halleluja....

Is it me or does it seem like Obama supporters are slightly jacked up?