So how many world wide deaths have there been from swine flu so far? 300? 500? Even 1000? Gee, what a pandemic! You know the WHO changed it's definition of pandemic so they could call this a pandemic, but it's largely a farce.

And first of all, the flu came from Mexico. Less than 5000 or so citizens became infected when this first started and there was only less than a hundred deaths. The virus spread worldwide because the public health officials failed to control travel from Mexico, as usual.

Secondly, there is a debate as the whether the virus was engineered. The April 30, 2009 issue of Nature has a virologist saying, "Where the hell it got all these genes from we don't know." Analysis of the virus found it contained genes from the original 1918 H1N1 virus, the avian flu virus, and two new H3N2 viruses from Eurasia.

Third, the vaccine has been manufactured by Baxter Pharmaceuticals and Novartis Pharmaceutical, who both had agreements with the WHO to produce a pandemic vaccine.

Fourth, approval was really quick without much testing, kind of suspicious.

Fifth, the Baxter vaccine, Celvapan, utilizes cultured cells from the African green monkey. For all you green tree huggers out there, you're hurting monkeys when you get the vaccine. Anyways, this same animal is home to other viruses like the HIV, which can contaminate the vaccine since it comes from the same monkey as host. There's risk involved for contracting a virus you don't want, not that there's any conspiracy of that nature.

Sixth, Baxter also produced a seasonal flu vaccine that contained the avian virus additionally to regular flu, which would have produced a real world pandemic if it wasn't for lab workers in the Czech Republic who flu the whistle before the deadly combo was introduced. Baxter vaccines are awesome! And of course they continue to work with the WHO!

According to this email newsletter that I'm going by, Novartis, the second contender includes squalene, which um is a type of oil. This adjuvant causes autoimmune disorders in animals like RA, MS, and lupus. The Chiron vaccine company makes an anthrax vaccine called MF-59 which has been shown to trigger all these autoimmune diseases when injected. The MF-59 adjuvant has been used in several vaccines, including tetanus and diphtheria. I know from personal experience in receiving the the diphtheria vaccine that it gave me an adverse affect on me about 1.5 years ago. I don't need to see studies to know it's messed up (was gonna use the F-bomb but retracted).

Seventh, several studies have shown that MF-59 to be a very safe immune adjuvant. But guess what, the ones who did the studies happened to be Novartis and Chiron. "No, the studies showed the vaccine wasn't safe, so don't take my vaccine." Come on? Use your head? Scientists are sometimes skilled in lying without lying directly. They were also published in prestigious, peer-reviewed journals. But independent laboratories and research institutions, with similar publishing status, found a strong link between MF-59 and autoimmune diseases.

Eight, anyone who doubts this should do their own journal searching, as will in the next few months. However, one need only consider Gulf War Syndrome, which squalene has been strongly linked with. From 1990 to 91 there was a 200% increase in developing Lou Gehrig's disease, and the soldiers also suffered from a bunch of other conditions: like polyarteritis nodosa, MS. lupus, transverse myelitis, endocarditis, optic neuritis with blindness, and glomerulonephritis.

Nine, the hyperimmune responses that possibly induce autoimmunity, can activate a prolonged response to the brain's immune microglial cells, which has been strongly associated with MS, Alzhehimer's, Parkinson's, ALS, and possibly vaccine-related encephalitis. In other words, the vaccines also activates your brain cells, which can prolong a reaction. Over time it can lead to the said diseases because of the resulting hidden inflammation.

Ten, most people and even most doctors don't know that the studies done by the pharmaceuticals observe patients for only one to two weeks following vaccination, when prolonged reactions can take months and even years to manifest. The vaccine pharmaceutical manufacturers stand to make billions of dollars on just the swine flu alone. Fact, they won't give any to impoverished nations, so it's hardly about a pandemic.

You know what guys? I don't believe in the vaccine. I'm a vaccine "atheist" (unless there's a disease that is shown to be crippling like polio, which no longer exists, or kills 100,000s of people a year). You can be a "believer" if you want though and worship this Vaccina god if you like! Take your opiate-of-the-masses vaccine and lap up everything that the new priesthood tells you like a faithful dog. Sacrifice you children to the new Moloch!

But oh come on, it can't be that dramatic? Can it? Hell if I know, but you need to pay attention. Affects do not generally seem to be seen right away (accept the rare side effects). They can begin to manifest as ADD or depression! It just seems to me like the more you get vaccines, the more you're at risk for the autoimmune diseases as a magnified affect. Oh but I know the religious nay-say mantra: "no evidence". No evidence, or none that they have seen or none they are willing to accept? I've personally seen a ton of evidence. Perhaps I will amass a heap of evidence that you can choose to accept or not (give a month or two). Indeed, you can continue taking your "blue pill" and forget about all this or demand journal articles or definitions and so forth. You can even sprinkle humor on this and wryly come up with some conspiracy joke if it makes you feel better. "All is well in the world and science serves me!" Science is just a tool that can be used for both good or evil. Doesn't evil exist in the world? But for you others who like to look before you leap with caution, perhaps it's time to take the "red pill" and start investigating it seriously instead of making light of this issue. At least give it serious thought? WHO knows just how far down this rabbit hole goes?

Well, all I know is that if all this is a vast conspiracy to make me get a swine flu vaccine, they are doing a heck of an ineffective job since there's no H1N1 vaccine to be had anywhere in the city and pharmacists tend to burst into tears of frustration if you ask when they will become available......

That said, I rarely take the flu vaccine, so the probability of my taking this one is also fairly low.

BTW, if this IS all a conspiracy, who exactly is it benefiting and what's the ultimate aim? here From what I can see so far, biggest beneficiaries have been manufacturers of hand sanitizers....heck, even I bought a bottle, which is EVEN more rare than my getting flu' vaccines !

Laws are being changed, slightly maybe, but enough to be troubling.

The vaccines seam to be getting to places at designated times in designated batches, I have been following 'their' calender, it is all a bit odd.

First it was to be pregnant women and children first and now ...absolutely not pregnant women and children at all ! strange ?

So, Patrick moving slowly into the Abyss from "Vaccines are bad" to "Vaccination is a conspiracy".

Wonder what the next rung on the ladder (going down of course) is going to be?

"So how many world wide deaths have there been from swine flu so far? 300? 500? Even 1000? Gee, what a pandemic!"

>>As of October 24th there were more than 1000 deaths and more than 20,000 hospitalizations reported in the US alone.

"Secondly, there is a debate as the whether the virus was engineered."

>>Any debate regarding whether the virus was engineered is no more substantial than the debate regarding whether or not the human eye was designed.

"he April 30, 2009 issue of Nature has a virologist saying, "Where the hell it got all these genes from we don't know.">>That's interesting, but do you have anything which supports the idea that the virus was designed? This virologist's statement doesn't argue for nor imply design.

"Third, the vaccine has been manufactured by Baxter Pharmaceuticals and Novartis Pharmaceutical, who both had agreements with the WHO to produce a pandemic vaccine."

>>And how is the identity of the manufacturers significant?

"Fourth, approval was really quick without much testing, kind of suspicious."

>>All seasonal flu vaccine apprrovals are fast-tracked, and the H1N1 vaccine went through the standard clinical testing procedure flu vaccines are subjected to (i.e., no short-cuts were taken re testing or approval).

"Fifth, the Baxter vaccine, Celvapan, utilizes cultured cells from the African green monkey."

>>Yes: that's a much more modern technology which offers significant advantages over producing virus' in chicken eggs, a 1950's era technology stil;l used by the US.

"Anyways, this same animal is home to other viruses like the HIV, which can contaminate the vaccine since it comes from the same monkey as host."

>>The cells used for virus production are tested and demonstrated to be free of other viruses prior to use.

"There's risk involved for contracting a virus you don't want, not that there's any conspiracy of that nature."

>> You went on earlier about "how many worldwide deaths—1000?" to suggest the risk from contracting H1n1 was trivial, so one has to ask: how many people worldwide have died from the simian equivalent of HIV as a result of being immunized with a vaccine produced in monkey cells? Let's hear the number.

"Sixth, Baxter also produced a seasonal flu vaccine that contained the avian virus additionally to regular flu, which would have produced a real world pandemic if it wasn't for lab workers in the Czech Republic who flu the whistle before the deadly combo was introduced. Baxter vaccines are awesome! And of course they continue to work with the WHO!"

>>Yes—Baxter screwed up big time, and you have (for a change) pointed to an actual problem with specific batches of a specific manufacturer's vaccines.

"According to this email newsletter that I'm going by, Novartis, the second contender includes squalene, which um is a type of oil."

>>Squalene is a naturally occurring molecule that's circulating in your bloodstream as we speak in levels comparable or greater than anything you'll receive through inmmunization.—your liver produces significant quantities of squalene daily. If this is such a dangerous compound perhaps we should all have our liveres removed?

"This adjuvant causes autoimmune disorders in animals like RA, MS, and lupus. "

>>At much higher doses, yes. There's no evidence that the concentration of squalene used in vaccines as a n adjuvant confers an increased risk of autoimmune disease.

"The Chiron vaccine company makes an anthrax vaccine called MF-59 which has been shown to trigger all these autoimmune diseases when injected. "

>>Patrick, MF-59 is squalene.

"The MF-59 adjuvant has been used in several vaccines, including tetanus and diphtheria."

>>So unless there's similar evidence that these vaccines cause autoimmunity I think we can rule out the squalene as a causative agent, don't you?

"I know from personal experience in receiving the the diphtheria vaccine that it gave me an adverse affect on me about 1.5 years ago. I don't need to see studies to know it's messed up (was gonna use the F-bomb but retracted)."

>>It seems you don't need to see evidence to know a great many things—that vaccines are bad, that antibodies don't do jack, that heterosexuals 'own' marriage, etc.

"Seventh, several studies have shown that MF-59 to be a very safe immune adjuvant."

>>Wow! Not only do you not need evidence to know something, you also have the ability to know things despite strong evidence to the contrary! How do you do it?

"But guess what, the ones who did the studies happened to be Novartis and Chiron. "No, the studies showed the vaccine wasn't safe, so don't take my vaccine." Come on? Use your head? Scientists are sometimes skilled in lying without lying directly. They were also published in prestigious, peer-reviewed journals. But independent laboratories and research institutions, with similar publishing status, found a strong link between MF-59 and autoimmune diseases."

>>Which studies in which publications? References, please.

"Eight, anyone who doubts this should do their own journal searching, as will in the next few months. "

>>Why don't you just point us to the studies you referred to above—you know, the ones by "independent laboratories and research institutions, with similar publishing status" which "found a strong link between MF-59 and autoimmune diseases"? I mean, you do know what they are and you have read them yourself, before making this claim, right?

"However, one need only consider Gulf War Syndrome, which squalene has been strongly linked with."

>>I'm not aware of such a strong link. In fact, a cursory look at Wikipedia indicates quite the opposite:

"It is important to note that our laboratory-based investigations do not establish that squalene was added as adjuvant to any vaccine used in military or other personnel who served in the Persian Gulf War era."[21] A later study reported that many humans have squalene antibodies in their blood, regardless of whether or not they received squalene from a vaccination.[22] Subsequent investigation revealed that the study in question, which attempted to link squalene to Gulf War Syndrome, had several technical deficiencies in the way in which it analyzed its data. On top of this, it has been determined that the anthrax vaccines given to those US military personnel, did not use squalene as an adjuvant [8].

[8] Research Advisory Committee on Persian Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses December 12-13, 2005 Committee Meeting Minutes (page 68)

[21] Asa, P. B., Cao, Y. & Garry, R. F. (2000): Antibodies to squalene in Gulf War Syndrome. In: Experimental and Molecular Pathology. 68, 55-64.

[22] <link>

All I have time for this morning.

I know three people who have had it and one who is dead from it.

So, here's an idea: If you don't want to take the Vaccine then don't. But, since you obviously don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, why don't you stop sending this sort of IDiot crap around, Hmmm?

If some who doesn't get vaccinated as a result of your IDiot persuasion dies from the H1N1, Are you going to eat your words with a side of crow?

Everyone should get vaccinated against the H1N1. The problem is that there is not enough of the vaccine to go around. So, they prioritize it based on the possibly affected group.

...then get back to us on how bad it was, 'kay?

5000 deaths worldwide in less than 6 months. The WHO has declared it a pandemic. The U.S. government has declared it a national emergency.

Yes, it's serious, fuckwad. Even a dolt like you ought to realize that by now.

...'vaccines will make you homosexual.'

;)

Dunno, I always tend to kick and scream a bit and ask for cost-benefit analyses anytime they want EVERYONE to get a vaccine, when for *most* people getting this flu it does not seem to be much worse than getting regular flu.

Many thousands die of regular flu each year. What I haven't seen yet is any conclusive evidence that this is any WORSE than regular seasonal flu.

And I'm just not a big fan of vaccines where the virus mutates so fast that you have to get a new shot each year -- my biggest gripe with the regular flu' vaccine. If the H1N1 virus turns out to be more 'stable' so that the vaccine gives a few years of immunity at least, I'll probably consider getting it.

look inside the swine flu vaccine.

• aluminum hydroxide
• aluminum phosphate
• ammonium sulfate
• amphotericin B
• animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain
• dog kidney, monkey kidney,
• chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
• calf (bovine)serum
• betapropiolactone
• fetal bovine serum
• formaldehyde
• formalin
• gelatin
• glycerol\human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
• hydrolyzed gelatin
• monosodium glutamate (MSG)
• neomycin
• neomycin sulfate
• phenol red indicator
• phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
• potassium dishosphate
• potassium monophosphate
• polymyxin B
• polysorbate 20
• polysorbate 80
• porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
• residual MRC5 proteins
• sorbitol
• sucrose
• thimerosal (mercury)
• tri(n)butylphosphate,
• VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
• Washed sheep red blood cells.

If you can point to credible evidence that sorbitol, or thimerosal (which isn't mercury, BTW), or Di- and Mono-basic potassium salts (used as buffering agents to maintain a proper pH) etc. aren't safe as used in teh vacine we could begin a meaningful discussion, but the simple fact that vaccine formulations icontain a whole lot of ingredients with odd sounding names doesn't argue they're not safe or effective. (Sucrose, for god's sake, is simply the same sugar we bake in cakes.)

That and the fact that all of those ingredients aren't in all (or any) vaccines. A few from this list may occur in a vaccine, not all of them.

<link>#

e.g. here's the ingredients for one Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine manufactured by CSL Ltd. :

11 DESCRIPTION

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine, for intramuscular injection, is a sterile, clear, colorless to slightly opalescent suspension with some sediment that resuspends upon shaking to form a homogeneous suspension. Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is prepared from influenza virus propagated in the allantoic fluid of embryonated chicken eggs. Following harvest, the virus is purified in a sucrose density gradient using a continuous flow zonal centrifuge. The purified virus is inactivated with beta-propiolactone, and the virus particles are disrupted using sodium taurodeoxycholate to produce a "split virion". The disrupted virus is further purified and suspended in a phosphate buffered isotonic solution.

Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is formulated to contain 15 mcg HA per 0.5 mL dose of influenza A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)v-like virus.

The single-dose formulation is preservative-free; thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is not used in the manufacturing process for this formulation. The multi-dose formulation contains thimerosal, added as a preservative; each 0.5 mL dose contains 24.5 mcg of mercury.

A single 0.5 mL dose of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine contains sodium chloride (4.1 mg), monobasic sodium phosphate (80 mcg), dibasic sodium phosphate (300 mcg), monobasic potassium phosphate (20 mcg), potassium chloride (20 mcg), and calcium chloride (1.5 mcg). From the manufacturing process, each dose may also contain residual amounts of sodium taurodeoxycholate (≤ 10 ppm), ovalbumin (≤ 1 mcg), neomycin sulfate (≤ 0.2 picograms [pg]), polymyxin B (≤ 0.03 pg), and beta-propiolactone (< 25 nanograms).

The rubber tip cap and plunger used for the preservative-free, single-dose syringes and the rubber stoppers used for the multi-dose vial contain no latex.

What is the point you are trying to make?

Where did you even get this? And what difference does any of it make. I take Insulin every single day and I would be willing to bet it has a fair number of the same ingredients. So, I suppose I can just stop taking it and die of untreated type 1 diabetes, Or I can continue with my injections and go on living...Hmmmmmm, Tough choice.

I suggest that you go do some volunteer work amongst those afflicted with the H1N1 and see if you can catch it. Then you might think slightly different about it.

The anti-science crowd is lying to us.

Surprising to see WL and Patrick on the same half baked side but, there it is.