Was Satchel Paige the greatest pitcher of all time?

I think you can make a good case that he was....he's almost certainly top three. I'd say his competition would be Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Lefty Grove, Tom Seaver...

Our only statistical sampling of his talent came when he joined Bill Veeck's Indians at 41* when he pitched with an ERA+** of 164 (actual ERA of 2.38). he pitched an ERA+ average of 124 during the rest of his seven year MLB career (aged 41-48)

Roger Clemens pitched an ERA+ of 146 at 41 with some help from HGH. Walter Johson did not pitch at that age, but he did manage an ERA+ of 149 at age 36, his last really good year. Lefty Grove managed a 185 before falling of a cliff at age 39.

Maybe a deceptive stat; he did not pitch very many innings...you don't hear much about him in the greatest ever conversations though.

*that was his age at least; there is much dispute about his birth certificate. He might have been three years older

**a stat that corrects for deadball/juiceball eras, 1 is average, higher numbers are better

Was Satchel Paige the greatest pitcher of all time?

dude, either you have too much free time, or your'e beyond help.

there is much dispute about his birth certificate

the entire nation is disputing this as we speak. The NSA has promised to help

...and you're the guy wasting time reading and replying to his post. Talk about free time.

Well, I think you've established that Paige was the greatest over-40 pitcher of all time. As to total career value it would be hard to say given the limitations of Negro League stats and the differences in the level of competition.

That was a great year for Clemens. He pitched all of the innings in the NL, gave up only three runs in interleague play, and threw BP for Round Rock on his off days.

Sorry, just a hilarious typo. :)

I'm with lawfeast on this one. The issue of reliable defensive stats is contentious *right now*. Extrapolating back to the defensive-data-starved past complicates things when it comes to cross-generational pitching comparisons. And this is *just* for MLB, which is by far the most data-rich environment, historically speaking.

I had the privilege of meeting Satchel Paige's road roommate with the Kansas City Monarchs, Buck O'Neal, one time. Although our meeting consisted mostly of a handshake, someone else asked O'Neal basically that same question.

O'Neal, who worked as a manager and scout in the majors after his Negro League playing career was over, said Satchel was the best "junk ball" pitcher of all time -- lots and lots of deceptive breaking balls, but not the lightning speed of major league pitchers from the modern era.

O'Neal's opinion may not be definitive, but surely it counts for something.

and you're the guy wasting time reading and replying to my post ...

I always wonder this. In an age where white and black men spit tobacco, smoked, drank regularly if not heavily, Satchel Paige was a relative health nut. And he treated his arm the way it should be treated, as a meal ticket. He took care of himself, which kept him a viable if not overpowering pitcher probably into his early 50s. I can only imagine the lights-out pitching he'd deliver in his prime.

"Re: and we care because ?"

I don't know, maybe because it was an article that asked "what if Negro Leaguers played in the MLB"? And because Satchel Paige was the best Negro League pitcher? And because did play a small part of his career in the MLB and we can try to extrapolate backward? Because the endless public option 'will they/won't they' gets tiresome?

(Btw, true story--I have debates about this stuff with a fraternity brother of mine who ended up at NSA)

@Jim, to be fair that Round Rock Express team had some great bp hitters..

Egregrious typo; ERA+ average is of course "100".

My whole quasi-thesis is beyond speculative, but in a sport as data-mined as baseball, this is one of the few "holes"...I didn't know this before I posted, but Bill James has him at the #2 pitcher* <link> right ahead of Lefty Grove but behind Walter Johson

*List updated in 2000, which is why Barry Bonds is so low.

Greg " Mad Dog " Maddux was in the top five of greatest pitchers ever to grace the field. The man is the only second pitcher in history to have 3,000+ strikeouts and less than 1,000 walks while winning over 350+ games and not using Roids like Clemens.

Also for me my favorite Negro League player was Cool Papa Bell. The man was so fast and just a great player in his time. Had he been able to play in the big leagues who knows what records he would have set.

It is sad that racism did not allow those greats to play against the likes of Ruth and history should honour those from the Negro League for what they did during times that were dark.

Uncle Maddy

That's pretty interesting about Paige being a junkball pitcher, and it would go a long way toward explaining his success through his 40s. At an age when velocity dips, if that's what you're relying on, you're going to get knocked around. If he had spent years perfecting the art of pitching -- outthinking batters, being canny, crafty... he would be ideally suited to pitch into his 40s (or even his 50s). As for Paige being the GOAT, I always like to see where people think Koufax falls on the list. He didn't have sustained peak, but his star shined awful bright for the few years he did pitch. If longevity is a qualification he wouldn't make the grade, but his body of work, though brief, is awful impressive.

If he had spent years perfecting the art of pitching -- outthinking batters, being canny, crafty... he would be ideally suited to pitch into his 40s (or even his 50s).

Jamie Moyer, in a nutshell.

As for all-time peak, I'd go with, at least, Pedro, Maddux, or Clemens over Koufax (personal preference for Pedro). They dominated in a much higher offensive environment. Koufax, for example, doesn't even crack the top 50 for best single-season ERA+. And Pedro, of course, still has the second best career mark, and he's first among starters.

Surely Nolan Ryan has to fit in there somewhere.