Peculiarly, New Haven has not released the test questions at the center of this case. It is a pity, as that would provide a great deal of useful information - Freedom of Information request anyone?

So, we're left with a dispute between two groups:

• One one side, those who believe that if a test seems to produce differential results between "white" people and "black" people in a specific group, it is - by definition inappropriately discriminatory.
• On the other, those who believe that there may currently be differential average abilities between groups, maybe a reflection of different economic and educational circumstances in which people grew up, say; but that if a particular test reveals these differences, it is not inherently "racist," but merely accurately reflecting a situation at that time.

A couple of questions:

1. If the test had resulted in only "black" candidates passing, does anyone honestly believe that the test results would have been thrown out?
   
2. Can anyone give credible examples of the questions they think migth have been in the test that could have been "discriminatory"?

How would releasing the Q's help? The conservatives would argue regardless of the questions, that there was no bias in them. They would ignore any expert opinion.

All it would do is add fuel to the fire.

I assume it would be racist and white privilige for the public to actually see the questions. Right?

gringo_911:

I assume it would be racist and white privilige for the public to actually see the questions. Right?

HUH? No - it would be more akin to showing the equations of electron probability waves in high gravitational fields and then asking for a judgement from the public as to whether or not there was such a thing as quantum teleportation.

based on your analysis of the questions, I presume. Right?

you don't get it do you.. sucks to be you

about the questions - the more they are informed about the issue. Right. And it's me who does not understand it. Right. Makes sense, actually.

BTW, I would love to look at the questions - even though you think they are too complex for you.

Since you seem to believe that tests may be biased by accident, see if you can offer up some plausible examples. Make up some questions...

You have a problem, in that most people want tests to be disriminatory. I want a test to discriminate against the stupid and ill-educated when it is used to select candidates for med school. I want it to discriminate against the psychopathic when testing potential cops. I want firefighters who can read, write and do basic arithmatic - or whatever else they need to do firefighting and be a paramedic and all that.

If a group of people with gree hair happen to be characteristically disadvantaged in schools, leaving them barely educated, how is it the job of the rest of the community to help them in later life by letting them get into jobs in - say - the traffic planning service, because correcting the problem in schools is too hard? [For the slow of reasoning, this is not intended to assume that this is what happened in New Haven, I'm asking a more general point about how you deal with bad schools, which only the worst teachers'-union bigot would deny exist.]

That's ridiculous and patronizing. I thought we were all suposed to be in favor of public release of all material, no matter how damaging?

I'm white. My wife's black. We're both highly educated people. I'm capable of looking at the questions, and making a reasonable determination of whether what the "experts" say is bias is convincign or not. I'm perfectly capable of understanding abstract arguments from psychology - and also capable of determining when what is being pushed as empirical evidence and sound science is in fact politically constructed guff.

With respect, so far, all I have heard from you is the latter. It's just not good enough to say "the tests had a differential impact, therefore they must be inappropriately biased. Show me how they might have been.

If the public - like you - lack the skills to analyze for bias, then any conclusions you draw are no more valid than the conclusions the average person has in analyzing Quantum Electrodynamic equations.

IOW simply having access to the questions does NOT make a "more informed" public.

And your skills in assessing whether any question I put togethe is or is not biased is based on?

Since you lack the skills, on what basis do you believe you can make such an evaluation?

If a group of people with gree hair happen to be characteristically disadvantaged in schools, leaving them barely educated,

And this is EXACTLY an example of the pervasive racism rearing its ugly little head. Consider the common myths about blacks:

• Dishonest
• Lazy
• Dumb
• Mentally less capable

Now lets look at your example. It hits on #3 and #4 squarely.

And your skills in assessing whether any question I put togethe is or is not biased is based on? Since you lack the skills, on what basis do you believe you can make such an evaluation?

On what basis do you conclude who has those skills and who does not?

Ridiculous how? If the subject was quantum electrodynamics and I made the claim that Black holes are governed by the following equation:

Would you be able to tell me if I am right or wrong? Or should the last term be dr3 since volume is radius cubed?

I seriously doubt you have even the simplest basis for explaining the issue one way or the other.

And that is patronizing how? Ridiculous how?

And yet when it comes to testing methodology and psychology, you believe with no additional basis in fact that you know as much as those who have studied these issues in depth?

Talk about patronizing and ridiculous.

lacks those skills? For example, it's fairly straightforward to recognize who knows quantum mechanics and who does not (ha-ha-ha, we can have a written test), but as far as the race-pimping goes - anyone is an expert, really. Unless you assume there are some objective standards - and I would love to see you quote them.

...er, your response makes no sense.

I am sure you would feel perfectly capable of assessing whether something that is asserted to be (or not to be) torture is a decent and convincing assessment. I am not claiming to have any specific skills, I'm just a highly educated guy who wants someone to give me a few plausible examples. The fact that you resist speaks volumes.

As is so common in this kind of discussion, instead of engaging, you cry "racist" and avoid the question. It doesn't work with me - I'm very, very confident that there's nothing racist about my scenario. I am making a simple point. Let me spell it out for you.

There are, crudely, four potential explanations that various people (not necessarily me) might raise for the situation that took place in New Haven:

1. The black firefighters scored lower because they are innately inferior
2. The white firefighters scored higher because the tests were biased in their favor
3. The black firefighters scored lower because they happened to tend to come from a neighbourhood with a bad school.
4. The black firefighters scored lower because, randomly, this specific group of individuals happened not to have studied as hard on this occasion.

I reject #1 as not being worthy of consideration; I presume you do too (I cite it because there will be people who think that, and someone will bring it up...)

I might be misreading your argument, but you seem to assume that #3 and #4 are out of the question, and that #2 is the default answer.

I don't. I assume that #3 and #4 are at least legitimate possibiities, and that if we ignore them and steam ahead on that basis, we do harm.